18 ms·

>BLM >LGBT >counter culture Endlessly supported by literally every news outlet, major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half

>BLM >LGBT >counter culture Endlessly supported by literally every news outlet, major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class. You’re not counter to any major institution, lmao. You’re not the resistance

joxel 4y ago
[flagged]
cfltlayoffs 4y ago
This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual point. They think if they focus on saying words and not doing deeds, people will move on and forget.
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  If your culture is well-known enough and seen as desirable enough that you start having to no-true-scotsman to differentiate between the corporate poseurs and the true believers, it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore. People don't try to fake having low cultural status.
  - yadoomerta 4y ago
    imo that's the problem - everything gets corporate poseurs so quickly now could just be i'm out of touch and the countercultures have successfully hidden from me tho
  - thebooktocome 4y ago
    > People don’t try to fake having low cultural status. They do. One of the most successful directors of all time built his career telling stories about faking low cultural status. Perhaps that’s too abstract. But if people don’t fake low culture, then what is Hillbilly Elegy?
    - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
      That's faking low financial or political status in order to obtain cultural status. If the rich and powerful are generally hated, you don't become popular by flaunting your wealth but by distancing yourself from it.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    > it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore The very opposite.
  - harimau777 4y ago
    I don't think it's a "no-true-scotsman" to say that they would need to support the core goals of the movement in a meaningful way.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Police budgets are up, but policing is down, killings by police are way down, and consequentially violent crime is way, way up. Protesters didn’t get everything, but they got a lot of what they asked for (reduction in policing, basically) and they seem content (no more major protests or riots since the precipitous drop in policing following the Floyd protests). It seems hard to argue that there haven’t been disruptive changes considering violent crime levels (esp homicides), but I fully agree that “capitalists” (or maybe corporatists?) embraced BLM and other identity stuff because it’s a convenient distraction from substantial policy issues. A lot of folks made themselves into “useful idiots” over the last decade.
  - harimau777 4y ago
    I don't think it's that activists are content. Rather I think it's that a combination of people returning to work, the end of Covid financial support, and high inflation means that people can't protest anymore. There's probably also a lot of fatigue after protests were going on for months. I'd also contest whether activists really got much of what they were asking for. They generally weren't asking for simply no-police. Rather they were asking for issues like poverty, mental illness, and homelessness to be addressed rather than just being policed.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      People protested for half a decade before COVID. Even if they couldn’t get out and protest, they could still engage in social media, and yet it seemed like their enthusiasm for the subject largely evaporated, even on social media. Even the cheapest of symbolic stuff like “#BLM” in Twitter handles and bios seemed to largely disappear. It very much feels like they cut policing in the name of black Americans and then lost interest when policing drove up crime rates, particularly in black communities. > Rather they were asking for issues like poverty, mental illness, and homelessness to be addressed rather than just being policed. I’m sure some were asking for those things, but mostly this was a media retcon when it was becoming apparent that “abolish the police” was jeopardizing Biden’s election campaign (“when protesters say ‘abolish the police’ and ‘all cops are bastards’, surely they’re really advocating for more spending on social services, right?”).
- cubix 4y ago
  "The leftist of the over-socialized type tries to get off his psychological leash and assert his autonomy by rebelling. But usually he is not strong enough to rebel against the most basic values of society. Generally speaking, the goals of today’s leftists are NOT in conflict with the accepted morality. On the contrary, the left takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as its own, and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle.” --Theodore J. Kaczynski
  - n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
    Based and Ted-pilled
viraptor 4y ago
Changing the colour of your logo on a certain date is not really "supporting". Corps gonna corp and if changing the logo and publishing some nice post brings more money, they'll do it. (While donating to Republicans at the same time)
- z3c0 4y ago
  But what you're describing is exactly where "counterculture" flips over to "culture". It may have been counterculture at one point, but once it's grabbed up by the mainstream canon, it is no longer counterculture. This is an important element of "cool", which is essentially the ebb-and-flow of ideas between counterculture and mainstream culture.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Pretty sure BLM was a media darling from the moment it was discovered. Maybe I have a weird media bubble, but the content I saw was endlessly pro-BLM (even contortions such as the memorable CNN reporter wearing a gas mask against a burning Kenosha with the caption “fiery but mostly peaceful protests”) for most of the last decade. I can’t think of a way that BLM was ever counter-cultural.
    - z3c0 4y ago
      > from the moment it was discovered Counterculture is a like a good stock tip - if you're hearing about it, that ship has already sailed.
    - pjc50 4y ago
      > I can’t think of a way that BLM was ever counter-cultural. Fighting the police is about as counter as you can get.
      - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
        [dead]
    - 4y ago
barneygale 4y ago
> BLM > Endlessly supported Black people are still being murdered by police every day in America.
- throwawayacc6 4y ago
  That's happening in spite of BLM being endlessly supported. Doesn't negate the fact that BLM is supported by "literally every news outlet [save Fox News], major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class" AND the US government [0]. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-embassies-authorized-hang-black-lives-matter-flags/story?id=77919182 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-embassies-authorized-hang...
- n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    I think your argument is wrong in several ways, but even accepting it hypothetically -- equality of far too many murders by the police is not actually what anyone is looking for.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      It’s certainly not what I’m looking for, but BLM was obviously about purported racial inequality with respect to police killings or else Daniel Shaver, Tony Timpa, Justine Damond, etc would be among the Names that we’re told to Say.
      - jrochkind1 4y ago
        So it's not monolithic, I've definitely been at "BLM"-y protests against police violence where non-Black victims were mentioned. As far as actual policy changes we might want to advocate for or support, does it make any difference? I guess it would mean that "diversity training" for cops is not the way to go -- I agree and I think most BLM organizers would too (the ones I know anyway do). Instead ways that increase police accountability or limit police interactions are the way to go, which I again think would be agreeable. I think the level of violence and aggression that police enact on certain communities would probably not be tolerated if it affected people with more political power -- they target people with less political power, which has racial components in the USA is why race matters, but is not exclusively "black and white", sure.
throwayyy479087 4y ago
Yup. The fact this person doesn’t see this is evidence for the article.
pjc50 4y ago
"Supported" in only the very thinnest sense. The Raytheon Pride flags are generally considered to be extremely "virtue signalling" even within the community; at best this means "we'll allow you to work here and prevent people using slurs openly in the office", not "we'll stop donating to politicians and parties pushing anti-trans legislation or increased police budgets". The Tyre Nichols incident response shows some improvements, but those responsible have not yet been charged, and because US police are so fragmented it will be a very long time before standards are raised nationally.
RangerScience 4y ago
That’s… factually incorrect? Unless you don’t consider Fox News a news outlet, among other examples. Which (snarkily) I guess is fair.
- anon223345 4y ago
  I think their point was that BLM has flipped from counter cutler to mainline culture It’s on flags at schools, supported by government, roads are named after it, they have an enormous foundation with staff, and it’s even in college course curriculum
  - RangerScience 4y ago
    Ehh. I dunno, if that's "mainstream", why is this the third+ time this has had to be fought for? (BLM, Civil Rights, Civil War). We've had pictures of MLK in schools, Civil Rights has been "supported by government", roads were named after people, there were and are enormous foundations with staff, and it's definitely in college curriculums - and it's been that way for an entire human lifetime... ...and yet the same fight is being fought again. I'd figure if something achieved "mainstream", it wouldn't have to happen again and again. (edit: In my head, I'm compare/contrasting with suffragette and other aspects of women's rights)
    - srackey 4y ago
      This eternal fight is the culture.

joxel 4y ago

[flagged]

cfltlayoffs 4y ago

This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual point. They think if they focus on saying words and not doing deeds, people will move on and forget.

YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
If your culture is well-known enough and seen as desirable enough that you start having to no-true-scotsman to differentiate between the corporate poseurs and the true believers, it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore. People don't try to fake having low cultural status.
- yadoomerta 4y ago
  imo that's the problem - everything gets corporate poseurs so quickly now could just be i'm out of touch and the countercultures have successfully hidden from me tho
- thebooktocome 4y ago
  > People don’t try to fake having low cultural status. They do. One of the most successful directors of all time built his career telling stories about faking low cultural status. Perhaps that’s too abstract. But if people don’t fake low culture, then what is Hillbilly Elegy?
  - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    That's faking low financial or political status in order to obtain cultural status. If the rich and powerful are generally hated, you don't become popular by flaunting your wealth but by distancing yourself from it.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore The very opposite.
- harimau777 4y ago
  I don't think it's a "no-true-scotsman" to say that they would need to support the core goals of the movement in a meaningful way.
throwaway894345 4y ago
Police budgets are up, but policing is down, killings by police are way down, and consequentially violent crime is way, way up. Protesters didn’t get everything, but they got a lot of what they asked for (reduction in policing, basically) and they seem content (no more major protests or riots since the precipitous drop in policing following the Floyd protests). It seems hard to argue that there haven’t been disruptive changes considering violent crime levels (esp homicides), but I fully agree that “capitalists” (or maybe corporatists?) embraced BLM and other identity stuff because it’s a convenient distraction from substantial policy issues. A lot of folks made themselves into “useful idiots” over the last decade.
- harimau777 4y ago
  I don't think it's that activists are content. Rather I think it's that a combination of people returning to work, the end of Covid financial support, and high inflation means that people can't protest anymore. There's probably also a lot of fatigue after protests were going on for months. I'd also contest whether activists really got much of what they were asking for. They generally weren't asking for simply no-police. Rather they were asking for issues like poverty, mental illness, and homelessness to be addressed rather than just being policed.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    People protested for half a decade before COVID. Even if they couldn’t get out and protest, they could still engage in social media, and yet it seemed like their enthusiasm for the subject largely evaporated, even on social media. Even the cheapest of symbolic stuff like “#BLM” in Twitter handles and bios seemed to largely disappear. It very much feels like they cut policing in the name of black Americans and then lost interest when policing drove up crime rates, particularly in black communities. > Rather they were asking for issues like poverty, mental illness, and homelessness to be addressed rather than just being policed. I’m sure some were asking for those things, but mostly this was a media retcon when it was becoming apparent that “abolish the police” was jeopardizing Biden’s election campaign (“when protesters say ‘abolish the police’ and ‘all cops are bastards’, surely they’re really advocating for more spending on social services, right?”).
cubix 4y ago
"The leftist of the over-socialized type tries to get off his psychological leash and assert his autonomy by rebelling. But usually he is not strong enough to rebel against the most basic values of society. Generally speaking, the goals of today’s leftists are NOT in conflict with the accepted morality. On the contrary, the left takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as its own, and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle.” --Theodore J. Kaczynski
- n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
  Based and Ted-pilled

viraptor 4y ago

Changing the colour of your logo on a certain date is not really "supporting". Corps gonna corp and if changing the logo and publishing some nice post brings more money, they'll do it. (While donating to Republicans at the same time)

z3c0 4y ago
But what you're describing is exactly where "counterculture" flips over to "culture". It may have been counterculture at one point, but once it's grabbed up by the mainstream canon, it is no longer counterculture. This is an important element of "cool", which is essentially the ebb-and-flow of ideas between counterculture and mainstream culture.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Pretty sure BLM was a media darling from the moment it was discovered. Maybe I have a weird media bubble, but the content I saw was endlessly pro-BLM (even contortions such as the memorable CNN reporter wearing a gas mask against a burning Kenosha with the caption “fiery but mostly peaceful protests”) for most of the last decade. I can’t think of a way that BLM was ever counter-cultural.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    > from the moment it was discovered Counterculture is a like a good stock tip - if you're hearing about it, that ship has already sailed.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    > I can’t think of a way that BLM was ever counter-cultural. Fighting the police is about as counter as you can get.
    - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
      [dead]
  - 4y ago

barneygale 4y ago

> BLM > Endlessly supported Black people are still being murdered by police every day in America.

throwawayacc6 4y ago
That's happening in spite of BLM being endlessly supported. Doesn't negate the fact that BLM is supported by "literally every news outlet [save Fox News], major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class" AND the US government [0]. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-embassies-authorized-hang-black-lives-matter-flags/story?id=77919182 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-embassies-authorized-hang...
n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
[flagged]
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  I think your argument is wrong in several ways, but even accepting it hypothetically -- equality of far too many murders by the police is not actually what anyone is looking for.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    It’s certainly not what I’m looking for, but BLM was obviously about purported racial inequality with respect to police killings or else Daniel Shaver, Tony Timpa, Justine Damond, etc would be among the Names that we’re told to Say.
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      So it's not monolithic, I've definitely been at "BLM"-y protests against police violence where non-Black victims were mentioned. As far as actual policy changes we might want to advocate for or support, does it make any difference? I guess it would mean that "diversity training" for cops is not the way to go -- I agree and I think most BLM organizers would too (the ones I know anyway do). Instead ways that increase police accountability or limit police interactions are the way to go, which I again think would be agreeable. I think the level of violence and aggression that police enact on certain communities would probably not be tolerated if it affected people with more political power -- they target people with less political power, which has racial components in the USA is why race matters, but is not exclusively "black and white", sure.

throwayyy479087 4y ago

Yup. The fact this person doesn’t see this is evidence for the article.

pjc50 4y ago

"Supported" in only the very thinnest sense. The Raytheon Pride flags are generally considered to be extremely "virtue signalling" even within the community; at best this means "we'll allow you to work here and prevent people using slurs openly in the office", not "we'll stop donating to politicians and parties pushing anti-trans legislation or increased police budgets". The Tyre Nichols incident response shows some improvements, but those responsible have not yet been charged, and because US police are so fragmented it will be a very long time before standards are raised nationally.

RangerScience 4y ago

That’s… factually incorrect? Unless you don’t consider Fox News a news outlet, among other examples. Which (snarkily) I guess is fair.

anon223345 4y ago
I think their point was that BLM has flipped from counter cutler to mainline culture It’s on flags at schools, supported by government, roads are named after it, they have an enormous foundation with staff, and it’s even in college course curriculum
- RangerScience 4y ago
  Ehh. I dunno, if that's "mainstream", why is this the third+ time this has had to be fought for? (BLM, Civil Rights, Civil War). We've had pictures of MLK in schools, Civil Rights has been "supported by government", roads were named after people, there were and are enormous foundations with staff, and it's definitely in college curriculums - and it's been that way for an entire human lifetime... ...and yet the same fight is being fought again. I'd figure if something achieved "mainstream", it wouldn't have to happen again and again. (edit: In my head, I'm compare/contrasting with suffragette and other aspects of women's rights)
  - srackey 4y ago
    This eternal fight is the culture.