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My understanding of counterculture is that it 'counters'. I.e. it inherently searches to change or influence the dominant culture. Your examples do show that w

by ArnoVW 4y ago

My understanding of counterculture is that it 'counters'. I.e. it inherently searches to change or influence the dominant culture. Your examples do show that we are (thankfully) not a monoculture. But they place themselves outside of our culture, instead trying to influence. A good example of counter culture is BLM, Extinction Rebellion or Occupy Wallstreet. Only thing: those are movements, not cultures. And they are, IMHO, generally ephemeral.

jiriknesl 4y ago
BLM, Extinction Rebellion and Occupy Wallstreet are the culture. Colour-blind antiracism, preparing for global warming instead of pushing green deal & capitalism are countercultures now.
- TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  Right, and ironically all are astro-turfed and embraced by the World Economic Forum.
ianai 4y ago
google: coun·ter·cul·ture /ˈkoun(t)ərˌkəlCHər/ Learn to pronounce noun noun: counterculture; plural noun: countercultures; noun: counter-culture; plural noun: counter-cultures a way of life and set of attitudes opposed to or at variance with the prevailing social norm. "the idealists of the 60s counterculture"
- ArnoVW 4y ago
  Being not native, I googled before I posted. In the first page I saw some phrases that seemed to confirm for me. For example, Wikipedia, citing a book from 1991: Counterculture may or may not be explicitly political. It typically involves criticism or rejection of currently powerful institutions, with accompanying hope for a better life or a new society. But if I'm completely besides the mark, apologies
  - ianai 4y ago
    One big difference between the US and other countries: The US doesn’t look at counterculture as a fundamental threat or challenge to the government. The US citizens actually have freedom. The constitution went so far as to identify the sovereignty of the country with its citizens - thus no royalty. This might sound quaint to some critical ears of the US, but that is the basis of the law and US systems. The US citizens only need to be reminded of this fact and decide whether they want to reinforce that fact with their personal choices - nonviolent protest, voting, etc. Edit-That might not seem related to the definition of counterculture, but it absolutely is. The US has a culture of multiculturalism. It has the Amish and lets them largely have their culture within the larger culture. There are many such examples with gradients all over and within the US. Sure, sometimes some of those subcultures get political and exert themselves. But they do it within the peaceful political system as a strong trend.
adamcharnock 4y ago
I think this is a good point, and you don't deserve to be downvoted for it. I think some of my examples do try to change wider society, but it is just more subtle and less overt/wholesale. I think there will be activists/evangelicals in any sub-culture.
n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
>BLM >LGBT >counter culture Endlessly supported by literally every news outlet, major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class. You’re not counter to any major institution, lmao. You’re not the resistance
- joxel 4y ago
  [flagged]
- cfltlayoffs 4y ago
  This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual point. They think if they focus on saying words and not doing deeds, people will move on and forget.
  - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    If your culture is well-known enough and seen as desirable enough that you start having to no-true-scotsman to differentiate between the corporate poseurs and the true believers, it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore. People don't try to fake having low cultural status.
    - yadoomerta 4y ago
      imo that's the problem - everything gets corporate poseurs so quickly now could just be i'm out of touch and the countercultures have successfully hidden from me tho
    - thebooktocome 4y ago
      > People don’t try to fake having low cultural status. They do. One of the most successful directors of all time built his career telling stories about faking low cultural status. Perhaps that’s too abstract. But if people don’t fake low culture, then what is Hillbilly Elegy?
anon223345 4y ago
BLM is literally on flags, in schools, it’s not counter culture The AP even has it on tests for college credit
- jonathanlb 4y ago
  I'll believe BLM is mainstream culture when people of color aren't being disproportionately killed by police. Until then, if police forces are upholding a mainstream concept of law and order resulting in said disproportionality, BLM is countercultural. Otherwise, if acknowledging the aims of basically what's a human rights movement via flags and spots on AP tests constitutes inclusion into mainstream culture, then the mainstream culture is absurd and perverse.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    This is like saying being "anti-murder" is countercultural because murders still happen. Just because something occurs does not mean there is no mainstream opposition. I would go further and say that the most basic elements of the BLM were never countercultural. opposition to excessive police force has been mainstream since the 70s-80s. The only part of BLM that is actually controversial and countercultural is the idea of abolishing the police. As a result, the majority of BLM supporters reject this aspect.
- ArnoVW 4y ago
  Note that by that measure, hippies were not counterculture.

by ArnoVW 4y ago

jiriknesl 4y ago

BLM, Extinction Rebellion and Occupy Wallstreet are the culture. Colour-blind antiracism, preparing for global warming instead of pushing green deal & capitalism are countercultures now.

TurkishPoptart 4y ago
Right, and ironically all are astro-turfed and embraced by the World Economic Forum.

ianai 4y ago

google: coun·ter·cul·ture /ˈkoun(t)ərˌkəlCHər/ Learn to pronounce noun noun: counterculture; plural noun: countercultures; noun: counter-culture; plural noun: counter-cultures a way of life and set of attitudes opposed to or at variance with the prevailing social norm. "the idealists of the 60s counterculture"

ArnoVW 4y ago
Being not native, I googled before I posted. In the first page I saw some phrases that seemed to confirm for me. For example, Wikipedia, citing a book from 1991: Counterculture may or may not be explicitly political. It typically involves criticism or rejection of currently powerful institutions, with accompanying hope for a better life or a new society. But if I'm completely besides the mark, apologies
- ianai 4y ago
  One big difference between the US and other countries: The US doesn’t look at counterculture as a fundamental threat or challenge to the government. The US citizens actually have freedom. The constitution went so far as to identify the sovereignty of the country with its citizens - thus no royalty. This might sound quaint to some critical ears of the US, but that is the basis of the law and US systems. The US citizens only need to be reminded of this fact and decide whether they want to reinforce that fact with their personal choices - nonviolent protest, voting, etc. Edit-That might not seem related to the definition of counterculture, but it absolutely is. The US has a culture of multiculturalism. It has the Amish and lets them largely have their culture within the larger culture. There are many such examples with gradients all over and within the US. Sure, sometimes some of those subcultures get political and exert themselves. But they do it within the peaceful political system as a strong trend.

adamcharnock 4y ago

I think this is a good point, and you don't deserve to be downvoted for it. I think some of my examples do try to change wider society, but it is just more subtle and less overt/wholesale. I think there will be activists/evangelicals in any sub-culture.

n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago

>BLM >LGBT >counter culture Endlessly supported by literally every news outlet, major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class. You’re not counter to any major institution, lmao. You’re not the resistance

joxel 4y ago
[flagged]
cfltlayoffs 4y ago
This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual point. They think if they focus on saying words and not doing deeds, people will move on and forget.
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  If your culture is well-known enough and seen as desirable enough that you start having to no-true-scotsman to differentiate between the corporate poseurs and the true believers, it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore. People don't try to fake having low cultural status.
  - yadoomerta 4y ago
    imo that's the problem - everything gets corporate poseurs so quickly now could just be i'm out of touch and the countercultures have successfully hidden from me tho
  - thebooktocome 4y ago
    > People don’t try to fake having low cultural status. They do. One of the most successful directors of all time built his career telling stories about faking low cultural status. Perhaps that’s too abstract. But if people don’t fake low culture, then what is Hillbilly Elegy?

anon223345 4y ago

BLM is literally on flags, in schools, it’s not counter culture The AP even has it on tests for college credit

jonathanlb 4y ago
I'll believe BLM is mainstream culture when people of color aren't being disproportionately killed by police. Until then, if police forces are upholding a mainstream concept of law and order resulting in said disproportionality, BLM is countercultural. Otherwise, if acknowledging the aims of basically what's a human rights movement via flags and spots on AP tests constitutes inclusion into mainstream culture, then the mainstream culture is absurd and perverse.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  This is like saying being "anti-murder" is countercultural because murders still happen. Just because something occurs does not mean there is no mainstream opposition. I would go further and say that the most basic elements of the BLM were never countercultural. opposition to excessive police force has been mainstream since the 70s-80s. The only part of BLM that is actually controversial and countercultural is the idea of abolishing the police. As a result, the majority of BLM supporters reject this aspect.
ArnoVW 4y ago
Note that by that measure, hippies were not counterculture.