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The closest competitor in this race was probably the SAAB Gripen, which would win out on several categories (Cost per flight hour, maintenance cost and complexi

The closest competitor in this race was probably the SAAB Gripen, which would win out on several categories (Cost per flight hour, maintenance cost and complexity, ground turnaround time, more capable AA missiles until at least 2027, more local production). So while the decision to go with F-35 of several "almost" Gripen buyers is understandable, it was by no means a walk over. Few buyers of F-35 will have much local manufacturing and technology transfer, for example. It's basically buying off Lockheed's shelf, paying US wages rather than domestic ones. The sticker price will look similar but mean different things. The deal does mention "opportunities for the Finnish defense industry related to the direct manufacture and maintenance of the F-35..." which I'm not sure exactly what it is. I thought the US and Lockheed were extremely reluctant to this kind of transfer.

alexisread 4y ago
The Gripen also wins on a huge metric of having source code access, and a more open supply chain (not ALIS). Not sure I'd buy a plane that I don't really own. In addition, this is an F35A vs Gripen E, so the Gripen has a better STOL capability, likely better radar (rotating GaN), more mature avionics link, supercruise, similar RCS (apart from frontal, it's likely to be smaller, red flag exercises hinted that they were not really detectable) and faster software updates. WRT stealth, if you want to be stealthy you can't use active radar, only passive. As such having IRST capability in addition to a good datalink is extremely useful to detect other aircraft. The F22 has no IR capability so is at a disadvantage in BVR from that, similar for the F35 which (I think) only has a downward targeting IR. From a reliability perspective, the Gripen is a long way ahead, the duty availability F35s is probably 70% at best by now (2019 figure was 50% https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-16/question-marks-remain-over-f-35-availability-support https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-16/q...) mainly due to parts shortage. The F35 still can't fly in stormy weather due to lightning strikes etc. I've no doubt the F35 can be a capable aircraft, just not compared to it's competitors. The decision, as usual, is more a political one.
- notlukesky 4y ago
  Apart from being a hangar queen, the F35 is not technically “owned”. More like a long term “lease” or SaaS model. You need a new PIN code, aka OTP, every day from the US government to just operate it when it is not under maintenance.
  - closewith 4y ago
    Is that true? I can't imagine any country accepting that term.
    - ambicapter 4y ago
      I imagine this is related to encrypted communications, where they'd want to rotate the key every day, and are unlikely to let anyone be able to generate those keys on their own.
    - daemoens 4y ago
      It's not true. The actual code that loaded into the plane is NATO MIDS/Link-16/IFF keys, not 'starting' the aircraft. And this is specifically for Austria, not NATO countries. The Austrian Eurofighters can fly and operate without those keys, they just won't be able to join NATO Link-16 networks or other encrypted NATO communications or navigation networks. This is standard practice for all modern combat aircraft, incidentally, as encryption keys are rotated on a regular basis and need to be loaded into the aircraft's onboard systems before flight. The data can also include additional interoperability elements such as TDMA slice allocations in the case of Link-16. The reason it has to be done by the unnamed contractor is because Austria is not a member of NATO, so it can't be given control over key handling. The same is true for Sweden & Switzerland. It's a logical tradeoff. Austria, Sweden, and Switzerland get access to encrypted NATO networks and can therefore interoperate seamlessly with NATO forces, but they're always free to opt-out. Sweden for instance has fall-backs to national data links and communications networks to which only it has the encryption keys.
- some_random 4y ago
  First off, you all are massively overestimating the capabilities of the Gripen and I have no idea how'd you get credible information for most of what you cited. But more importantly, Finland is a small country who's entire military is focused on defending against Russia and therefore doesn't need to "own" their aircraft.
pm3003 4y ago
They were, which is why this would be big news. The F-35 is a huge and long term defense US diplomacy and influence manoeuver. Maybe the recent changes in the strategic context have helped change the stance, or maybe it's mostly the fact that the supply chain for F-35 parts and maintenance are already established and it's easier to fit Finland workers into them rather than renegotiate everything with half the JSF participants.
jefftk 4y ago
> The deal does mention "opportunities for the Finnish defense industry related to the direct manufacture and maintenance of the F-35..." which I'm not sure exactly what it is. The article has: The principle is simple: Finland is to be able to keep the aircraft up in the air even if the borders are shut. To ensure that Finland will have an indigenous maintenance and repair capability for over 100 components (including parts of the fuselage and engine), which is based on the items covered by the industrial cooperation agreement. There will also be significant stockpiles of components that aren’t on the list of items which Finland can repair and overhaul organically (often parts with very long mean time between failures, and for which it aren’t economical to build up an independent repair capability). Notable is also that the Finnish organic repair capability is not just for domestic use, but is also part of the GSS (the global support solution) meaning that they will be used to maintain parts for the global spares pool.

alexisread 4y ago

The Gripen also wins on a huge metric of having source code access, and a more open supply chain (not ALIS). Not sure I'd buy a plane that I don't really own. In addition, this is an F35A vs Gripen E, so the Gripen has a better STOL capability, likely better radar (rotating GaN), more mature avionics link, supercruise, similar RCS (apart from frontal, it's likely to be smaller, red flag exercises hinted that they were not really detectable) and faster software updates. WRT stealth, if you want to be stealthy you can't use active radar, only passive. As such having IRST capability in addition to a good datalink is extremely useful to detect other aircraft. The F22 has no IR capability so is at a disadvantage in BVR from that, similar for the F35 which (I think) only has a downward targeting IR. From a reliability perspective, the Gripen is a long way ahead, the duty availability F35s is probably 70% at best by now (2019 figure was 50% https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-16/question-marks-remain-over-f-35-availability-support https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-16/q...) mainly due to parts shortage. The F35 still can't fly in stormy weather due to lightning strikes etc. I've no doubt the F35 can be a capable aircraft, just not compared to it's competitors. The decision, as usual, is more a political one.

notlukesky 4y ago
Apart from being a hangar queen, the F35 is not technically “owned”. More like a long term “lease” or SaaS model. You need a new PIN code, aka OTP, every day from the US government to just operate it when it is not under maintenance.
- closewith 4y ago
  Is that true? I can't imagine any country accepting that term.
  - ambicapter 4y ago
    I imagine this is related to encrypted communications, where they'd want to rotate the key every day, and are unlikely to let anyone be able to generate those keys on their own.
  - daemoens 4y ago
    It's not true. The actual code that loaded into the plane is NATO MIDS/Link-16/IFF keys, not 'starting' the aircraft. And this is specifically for Austria, not NATO countries. The Austrian Eurofighters can fly and operate without those keys, they just won't be able to join NATO Link-16 networks or other encrypted NATO communications or navigation networks. This is standard practice for all modern combat aircraft, incidentally, as encryption keys are rotated on a regular basis and need to be loaded into the aircraft's onboard systems before flight. The data can also include additional interoperability elements such as TDMA slice allocations in the case of Link-16. The reason it has to be done by the unnamed contractor is because Austria is not a member of NATO, so it can't be given control over key handling. The same is true for Sweden & Switzerland. It's a logical tradeoff. Austria, Sweden, and Switzerland get access to encrypted NATO networks and can therefore interoperate seamlessly with NATO forces, but they're always free to opt-out. Sweden for instance has fall-backs to national data links and communications networks to which only it has the encryption keys.
some_random 4y ago
First off, you all are massively overestimating the capabilities of the Gripen and I have no idea how'd you get credible information for most of what you cited. But more importantly, Finland is a small country who's entire military is focused on defending against Russia and therefore doesn't need to "own" their aircraft.

pm3003 4y ago

They were, which is why this would be big news. The F-35 is a huge and long term defense US diplomacy and influence manoeuver. Maybe the recent changes in the strategic context have helped change the stance, or maybe it's mostly the fact that the supply chain for F-35 parts and maintenance are already established and it's easier to fit Finland workers into them rather than renegotiate everything with half the JSF participants.

jefftk 4y ago

> The deal does mention "opportunities for the Finnish defense industry related to the direct manufacture and maintenance of the F-35..." which I'm not sure exactly what it is. The article has: The principle is simple: Finland is to be able to keep the aircraft up in the air even if the borders are shut. To ensure that Finland will have an indigenous maintenance and repair capability for over 100 components (including parts of the fuselage and engine), which is based on the items covered by the industrial cooperation agreement. There will also be significant stockpiles of components that aren’t on the list of items which Finland can repair and overhaul organically (often parts with very long mean time between failures, and for which it aren’t economical to build up an independent repair capability). Notable is also that the Finnish organic repair capability is not just for domestic use, but is also part of the GSS (the global support solution) meaning that they will be used to maintain parts for the global spares pool.