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Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search
- haser_au 4y agoHonestly, that's a relief and the best outcome.
- franze 4y agoAnybody has a clue how / what for this is used in mining? And are there alternatives for the future?
- defrost 4y agoEstimating iron ore grade on the fly as recently blasted ore beds are dumped through a load out into train carriages for transport to ocean side processing (further crushing, screening, fine grading and blending) and loading onto shipping. It's an 800 million tonne per year operation in W.Australia (somewhat larger than the US ~ 48 million tonne iron ore mining figures (IIRC)). The alternatives are to find something else that can be "shone" like a flashlight through raw iron ore, and | or for the world to consume less steel.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoBut the world needs more steel. To build more ships. The world needs more ships. To carry more ore and coal. Because the world needs more steel. Also to build buildings. This whole "economic" growth is just another bubble ready to pop, similar usefull to crypto in the long run. Destroyed the planet, for what..
- stefs 4y ago... but for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders! edit: i'm just referencing the famous new yorkers cartoon - https://imgur.com/a/dHBy8hI https://imgur.com/a/dHBy8hI - personally, i like steel.
- throwawaylinux 4y agoAnybody is free to choose to go without products made from steel or with steel tools if they want to stick it to the fat cats.
- refurb 4y agoThen i realized the shareholder is us .. .. me in fact!
- peepeepoopoo3 4y agoI hope you posted this using smoke signals and not a state of the art personal supercomputer.
- gonzo41 4y agoPaperclips - https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ Be careful.
- ta_6104829 4y agoI’m not sure about mining, but in dredging it’s used to measure the density of the slurry in a pipe. It’s possibly something similar in mining.
- defrost 4y agoBang on - it's for density. You'll also see radioactive sources in household smoke alarms on a smaller scale to estimate smoke load in air, and in mineral exploration in downhole detectors mapping density of surrounding materials, in oil and gas measuring the density profiles of fluids as they flow past, etc. Flashlights are visible light spectrum sources, gamma emitters are similar in function ( Cs-137 emits a 32 KeV x-ray peak and the 662 keV gamma peak ) as they "shine" through materials opaque in the visible spectrum and can be measured after for absorption.
- CorrectHorseBat 4y ago>You'll also see radioactive sources in household smoke alarms Better to get another one if you still have one of those, they are not very good: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DuAeaIcAXtg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DuAeaIcAXtg
- wkat4242 4y agoThose household smoke detectors were in the 80s, the ones sold now are optical. But of course there's many still around, sadly
- trelane 4y ago> Those household smoke detectors were in the 80s, the ones sold now are optical. No, ionization detectors are still around. They're better for detecting flame fires than optical. Think of when you've seen a campfire and there's been little smoke. There was definitely a fire, but an optical detector wouldn't have detected it. In contrast, optical is better for smoking fires. Best practice is to have some of each. In fact, I believe some models have both in the same unit. http://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Staying-safe/Safety-equipment/Smoke-alarms/Ionization-vs-photoelectric http://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Staying-safe/Safety-equ... > But of course there's many still around, sadly I hope not. PSA: most smoke detectors have a lifespan of 10 years. Smoke detectors from the 80s would be mostly useless now, 40+ years later. https://www.allstate.com/resources/home-insurance/how-long-do-smoke-detectors-last https://www.allstate.com/resources/home-insurance/how-long-d... Another PSA: while you're replacing your old smoke detectors, if you have combustion heat, consider replacing some of them with ones that also detect CO. (You'll have to replace them in 5-7years, though.)
- King-Aaron 4y agoDensity meter source, and no there's generally no necessary alternative as these are "usually" quite safe when they are handled correctly.
- acomjean 4y agoI’ve used troxler portable nuclear soil density readers when I was a civil engineer doing site inspections. I’m assuming it’s something similar. Fairly safe. I had a radiation badge which never showed anything. We know the badges worked because someone stored the badge with the nuclear device which caused them to be quite alarmed when that test came back. Keeping distance reduces exposure. We had to have paperwork from the US regularitiry commission to transport it from site back to office. I remember it was stored in a giant orange box which we tied down in the back of our truck. Looking it seems like new models are designed not to need that. https://troxlerlabs.com/egauge-model-4590-soil-density-gauge/ https://troxlerlabs.com/egauge-model-4590-soil-density-gauge...
- helsinkiandrew 4y agoSomeone posted this: https://www.advgauging.com/product/berthold-7440-d-cr-500-mci-cs-137-source/ https://www.advgauging.com/product/berthold-7440-d-cr-500-mc... on the discussion when it went missing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34560399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34560399 By measuring how much radiation is absorbed through some material you can determine how much metal it contains
- Archelaos 4y agoDer Spiegel writes that the capsule was used "to calibrate radiation measuring instruments, which are used to determine for example the density of rock." -- https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/australien-verlorene-radioaktive-kapsel-nach-tagelanger-suche-wiedergefunden-a-0750a33d-6694-4a64-b3d5-a21afb7a2bda https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/australien-verlorene-radioakt... (in German)
- wayvey 4y agoIf this had been found by the wrong people, what kind of nefarious uses could it have had?
- defrost 4y agoTrophy in a clubhouse bar, slowly increasing the cancer risk of all the regulars.
- SturgeonsLaw 4y agoAny greater risk of cancer than when bars used to allow smoking?
- ragebol 4y agoRadiation-poison people? There's not enough material, even if it was Uranium or Plutonium to make any sort of bomb IIRC, you need kilos for that not, (micro)grams.
- gambiting 4y agoI think that's probably the biggest risk - you could just plant it somewhere where it wouldn't be found for a while, giving everyone around it major radiation sickness.
- ragebol 4y ago10 X-rays an hour according to Wikipedia [0], which is already updated to the news. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137?useskin=vector#January_2023_Western_Australia,_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137?useskin=vector#Jan...
- jarenmf 4y ago> It was believed the capsule fell through the gap left by a bolt hole, after the bolt was dislodged when a container collapsed as a result of vibrations during the trip. You would imagine someone have thought of this failure mode
- ArchD 4y agoOnly if their job depended on it. For some people, their jobs mostly depend on following orders, official policy & "best-practices". The job reward is not directly related to the organization's or society's desired outcome. Codified rules and "best-practices" cannot cover everything important. Wisdom & truth are ineffable but sometimes people pretend that everything can be codified, but if that were the case, everything can be done with robots and computers.
- sime2009 4y ago"Mate, you worry too much. Bazza said he done the bolt real good this time. She'll be right."
- defrost 4y agoThese have been used and regularly replaced since the 1970s and this is the first time one has been lost in transit. Yes, they can do better and hopefully will do so in the future with more rules, regulations and checks. But, see [1] - you'd imagine someone would have thought about the front of an oil tanker falling off. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirki_(tanker) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirki_(tanker)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- stefs 4y agothe front fell off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM
- doctor_eval 4y ago
- lelaurent 4y agoHow did they find it?
- bunnie 4y agoI'm guessing that even though tho capsule is tiny, its radiation signature could be detected from quite a distance using a Geiger counter.
- defrost 4y agoBecause the output pulse from a Geiger–Müller tube is always of the same magnitude (regardless of the energy of the incident radiation), the tube cannot differentiate between radiation types. No "signature" detection possible with simple counters I'm afraid. They used trucks on the road with large doped sodium iodide crystal pack (tubes with a scintallation (flash) detector at the ends) that produce a second by second full spectrum of gamm energies seen. Processing software is used to filter out cosmic radiation signatures, the ground vehicle signatures, the mean expected background signature of the Western Australian region, and to enhance the target peaks from the Cs-137 source.
- Danieru 4y agoSounds like the sort of complex setup developed prior for other more exotic use cases...
- tobylane 4y agoWhich military based in Australia do you think helped by supplying this?
- defrost 4y agoAustralian civilian radiation services with backing of AGSO (Australian Geological Survey Organisation) are easily able to handle this all within Australia w/out reaching out to the Indians, Pakistani's, Iranians, Russians, South Africans, or other international nuclear agencies.
- dang 4y agoRecent and related: Australians scour desert for dangerous radioactive capsule smaller than a penny - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34560399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34560399 - Jan 2023 (332 comments)
- imputation 4y agoHere I am getting my hopes up of actualising 'Night of the Living Dead' off the title alone. Granted this is not a Venusian capsule so there is that...
- Loic 4y agoI am not surprised the found the capsule, I am surprised by the very professional way the company handled the case. If you look at the timeline of events (see link from dang comment), they reacted extremely quickly and professionally, from the contractor doing the transport to Rio Tinto informing the authorities. For me Rio Tinto was the company not taking care of our environment[0] in its operations, so for once, I am positively surprised. [0]: Oil & gas are pretty good at it where there is no regulatory pressure.
- sounds 4y agoI appreciate the willingness to give them a shout out, by name. Not the first time I've had a brush with Rio Tinto.
- defrost 4y agoYeah, they certainly FUBAR'd and lost brownie points when they blew up Juukan Gorge. Let's not forget they're sitting on $64 billion US worth of Copper in the US on native lands either.
- flangola7 4y agoAlso having a labor mass murder in their name
- defrost 4y agoSlave labor under the Romans at Rio Tinto from 206 BCE onwards for two hundred years, or the 1888 Zalamea massacre, or the still linguring toxic legacy of the Panguna mine in PNG? It's such a persistent ongoing problem with mining that I'm personally more inclined to blame the collective detached nature of consumers that demand products and yet turn a blind eye to the sourcing of that which they demand.
- avereveard 4y agoBlaming customers for companies malfeasance must have been one of the greatest deflection tactics ever invented and it saddens me deeply when it gets parroted verbatim by the general populace.
- ivan4th 4y agoBTW, there was an accident in Ukraine (Soviet Union at the time) related to a radioactive capsule that ended up in the wall of an apartment building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide...
- lqet 4y ago> The apartment was fully settled in 1980. A year later, an 18-year-old woman who lived there suddenly died. In 1982, her 16-year-old brother followed, and then their mother. [All from leukemia]. [...] A new family moved into the apartment, and their son died from leukemia as well. > A child's bed was located directly next to the wall containing the capsule.
- I-M-S 4y agoNaturally occurring radiation might play a part in human tendency to regard certain places as haunted.
- BaculumMeumEst 4y agoi'm pretty sure superstition about haunted locations doesn't come from people repeatedly getting leukemia
- heywhatupboys 4y agolmao, this is the most HN comment
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y agoActually "haunted" locations are often linked to carbon monoxide and infrasound, IIRC. We generally don't blame ghosts for mysterious burns or other signs of radiation sickness.
- undersuit 4y agoWe don't, but a society that doesn't know about radiation or even elementary particles may. The village doctor in the 1500s diagnosing radiation sickness would be even more of a quack than the one that doesn't apply enough leeches.
- pigtailgirl 4y ago-- What Caused the 2013 Hueypoxtla, Mexico Radiation Event? - really really interesting story - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuZvc5mmAXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuZvc5mmAXk --
- martynr 4y agoDoes anyone else feel like this is slightly overblown? From my perspective it was a localised and relatively limited risk and had fairly obvious and achievable corrective actions with a relatively good chance of success. It intrigues me that this seems to be perceived as something so calamitous/ risky.
- Gare 4y agoI'd rather live in a country where authorities are overly cautious and transparent than secretive and negligent.
- ekianjo 4y agoMore like they are likely not telling about the stuff they are doing that is really dangerous.
- johnchristopher 4y agoThey are hiding a teapot in orbit.
- scns 4y agoDamn, that was funny, Thanks.
- johnchristopher 4y agoAnd of course https://m.xkcd.com/1866/ https://m.xkcd.com/1866/
- TomK32 4y agoAustralia has slipped quite a few places on the last World Press Freedom Index. Let's not forget that friendlyjordies, while also making comedy videos but also making videos on corruption, politicians and the gambiling industry, was targeted by a firebomb and his house burnt down. Luckily he was away and no one at home.
- 8organicbits 4y agoI wonder what lessons learned and mitigations will come out of this. My armchair analysis is that there should be a Geiger counter on any vehicle moving radioactive material. I suspect the device had shielding to protect the driver, so an alarm should have gone off when that shielding broke. From that point on the driver was sitting close to an unshielded radiation source and in danger. I'm not an expect, but I suspect they'd want to evacuate the driver from truck at that point, although maybe the distance/timescale was small enough? Secondly, the sudden drop in radioactivity when the capsule left the truck should have triggered an alarm and GPS log. That would have shortened the time to notice the issue, reduced the search area, etc. I'm interested in other ideas.
- logifail 4y ago> the sudden drop in radioactivity when the capsule left the truck should have triggered an alarm and GPS log Shouldn't a radioactive source should be shielded when not in use, especially when it's being transported? If so there shouldn't be significant radiation coming from the shielded source inside the truck...
- eternityforest 4y agoThe Geiger counter doesn't have to be in the truck. It can even be integrated with the equipment being carried, so it can raise the alarm no matter where it is, as long as it has battery. It could even use a low power solid state sensor since the radioactivity is so strong, and when it detects radiation, start dead reckoning until it gets a GPS lock, so you could potentially still get good info with a coin cell level device, although you'd want more, because ideally you'd have a satellite signal. I wonder if there's any way to use the EPIRB satellites for that, or if the data is too limited to add a "Watch out, there's nuclear stuff here, this isn't a stranded hiker" flag?
- noir_lord 4y agoDo we have a Gieger Counter Sensor for when the Gieger Counter falls of the truck as well and does that need a Gieger Counter Sensor Sensor? (tongue in cheek). Seems like a simpler solution would be to prioritise checking some shipments over others at departure and arrival. My partner works in shipping/logistics and hazardous chemicals/products are treat completely differently to regular bulk cargo.
- fmajid 4y agoGood. Now fine the company 3x the cost of the recovery operation, and require them to carry these things in locked Pelican cases with a satellite GPS tracker with at least 7 days' battery life.
- tanbog5 4y agoMaximum penalty for a beach of this kind appears to be $1000 AUD... So yeah
- Pinegulf 4y agoSmall amount of radioactive materials go missing and it becomes international news. Things might be pretty good when it comes to nuclear materials safety after all.
- kitd 4y agoReddit had fun with this story. One guy was posting daily images of a small metal capsule he'd found, wondering what it was. Everyday the image deteriorated a bit, and he described feeling sicker. Comments were along the lines of "your passion for collecting is truly radiant".
- Cthulhu_ 4y agoI mean nuclear materials safety is top notch, for various reasons - including national security, as the material can be used to create a dirty bomb. The problem of disposal is political; nobody wants a nuclear waste storage bunker in their back yard. In the US, this has caused every nuclear power plant to have their own growing stockpile of nuclear waste - much more than they should have at any given time [0]. This comment was just from things I've read over time; I didn't realize the US actually has a $44B stockpile budget to build a nuclear waste disposal site, built up since the 80's. This is what a nuclear waste storage might look like: [1] [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/nuclear-waste-why-theres-no-permanent-nuclear-waste-dump-in-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/nuclear-waste-why-theres-no-... [1] https://www.science.org/content/article/finland-built-tomb-store-nuclear-waste-can-it-survive-100000-years https://www.science.org/content/article/finland-built-tomb-s...
- perihelions 4y agoIs the idea of blameless postmortem that exotic in the general public? If I hear that a critical safety system failed, my first association isn't "find the individual closest to responsibility, and look into whether a criminal prosecution is feasible". - "We have the ability to prosecute under the radiation safety act and we will certainly look at such prosecutions, and we've done that in the past," [Chief Health Officer Andy Robertson] said." - "The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, this morning joined those disappointed to learn the maximum penalty for mishandling radioactive material in such a manner was $1,000."
- JauntyHatAngle 4y agoI suspect he is talking about fining the company for a safety lapse, not individuals.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mulmen 4y agoThe same incentives apply.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y agoThat was the reasoning behind the Truth & Reconciliation Commission, in South Africa. It was difficult, seeing admitted thugs, walking free, but I think most folks think it actually worked out well. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_commission https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_commission
- dtech 4y agoIt is still good to place (organizational) blame and fines on such a thing, otherwise it's financially the most attractive option to take inappropriate risks.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y agoA lot of corporations actually budget for fines. People can really suck. It may be a corporation, doing the crime, but an individual made the decision to do it. I remember a DJ, in Washington DC, talking about parking fines. Parking in DC is expensive, with monthly passes, costing hundreds of dollars a month. His reasoning was that he parked illegally in lots around the studio, and occasionally got tickets, that he paid without issue, and it cost him far less than getting a pass. I assume these were not “tow away” lots.
- noduerme 4y agoOkay, sorry, call me cynical but what are the odds Rio Tinto placed a capsule by the side of the road, to walk off with a $1,000 fine, while whoever ripped open the gauge and stole the material is out there planning God-knows-what?
- tourist2d 4y agoEase up on the YouTube conspiracy videos.
- detaro 4y agoFrom their secret stockpile of illegal unregistered radiation sources they smuggled into the country to replace lost registered sources with?
- noduerme 4y agoThis made me laugh. I was definitely being a bit of a nudge and just free-form conspiracy theorizing. The idea that Rio had to register all their sources never even occurred to me.
- shapefrog 4y ago> "He said a search vehicle was driving past at 70 kilometres per hour on the Great Northern Highway when a detection device revealed radiation." Did nobody think to drive along the road with a geiger counter for the last few weeks?
- Schiendelman 4y agoFew weeks? It’s been known to be missing for one week.
- rippercushions 4y agoYes, and that's how they found it. But as this comment explains, it's not quite as trivial as you'd think: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34570931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34570931 We were lucky that it was found close to the road and thus not masked by background radiation.
- seanhandley 4y ago> "The search crews have quite literally found the needle in the haystack." Apart from flagrant abuse of the word "literally", this was an interesting read.
- SnowHill9902 4y agoThey have literally found the metaphorical needle in the haystack.
- implements 4y ago“Literally” has been abused for emphasis for centuries, apparently: … yet the wretch, absorbed in his victuals, and naturally of an unutterable dullness, did not make a single remark during dinner, whereas I literally blazed with wit. - William Makepeace Thackeray, Punch, 30 Oct. 1847
- walnutclosefarm 4y agoYes, but a bit overblown. They left out the part where the needle was glowing with highly penetrating radiation, 1000 times brighter than the hay, and everything - needle and haystack - was spread out along a known path. It looks like they did a great job, but for a crew with the right equipment, the capsule wasn't very well hidden.
- dghughes 4y agoThis company seems reckless. A few years ago they also damaged a 50,000 year-old structure used by Indigenous Peoples.
- Waterluvian 4y agoI don’t understand how one capsule of that size could fall off a truck without coming with a lot of other stuff too. What was the cargo configuration of this transport?
- chmod600 4y agoI assume the capsule was in some large equipment in a chamber, and the chamber wasn't closed properly, and it rattled its way out, bumped off the truck onto the road, and was kicked to the side either by that truck or some other vehicle.
- justusthane 4y agoYes, that's basically exactly what happened. I'm not digging up the previous piece I read (sorry), so I may be slightly misstating this, but basically the capsule was inside a sensor which was inside a wooden box bolted to the bed of the truck. On the 1600km of rough roads, the sensor vibrated to pieces, the capsule fell out, one of the bolts holding the box down also vibrated free, and the capsule fell down through the bolt hole. Pretty crazy.
- Waterluvian 4y agoWow. That’s wild. It reminds me of this experience I occasionally have where something in my home gets lost in the least believable of ways, so we’re hunting for something we’ll never find. One of my kids favourite hats got lost and we looked everywhere including at school. Found it in a Halloween storage bin in the attic. Still no clue what series of events led to that.
- justusthane 4y agoMy best one like that is my dad lost his glasses, and they turned up a few days later in the woodchute window - an opening from the outside to the basement of my parents' old farm house for tossing firewood through - which had not been used during the period the glasses were missing and was covered over.
- jeffrallen 4y agoI should put one of those radioactive pellets on my keychain so I could get some help the next time I lose them. :)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- tomcam 4y ago> The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, this morning joined those disappointed to learn the maximum penalty for mishandling radioactive material in such a manner was $1,000. Sincere question. In this particular case, wouldn’t a minimal fine tend to be in everyone’s best interest? Make it Draconian and the company has more motivation to cover it up, right?
- theandrewbailey 4y ago> The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, this morning joined those disappointed to learn the maximum penalty for mishandling radioactive material in such a manner was $1,000. Occam's razor suggests that the fine was put into law, then inflation happened and no one bothered to increase the fine.
- O__________O 4y ago>> Its loss sparked an unprecedented public safety warning over 1,400km […] a search vehicle was driving past at 70 kilometres per hour on the Great Northern Highway when a detection device revealed radiation. […] 20 metre "hot zone" has been set up around the capsule to ensure the public's safety. Why did it take 5-days to find it? Even just two vehicles driving from either start or end of the path should have covered the path in 10-hours; based on the actual location, it should have been found in 3-4 hours.
- Someone1234 4y agoIf we had vehicles at either end of the path already configured for positional radiation detection, sure. To determine what needs to happen could have taken a day or more, then a couple of days or more to get the equipment/expertise/calibration done. You're acting like a very specialized operation is some day-to-day occurrence that they should have rolling stock and experts ready to go at a moments notice. That has no basis in reality.
- Animatronio 4y agoA Bugatti Chiron Super Sport has a top speed of 490 km/h. Have one start at each end of the road and meet at the middle. One and half hours, tops (actually a little more to allow for refuelling). Boom, problem solved.