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My point is: "if their social skills are already messed up (through no fault of their own), your description offers no help or hope to those people." My counte

My point is: "if their social skills are already messed up (through no fault of their own), your description offers no help or hope to those people." My counter is that it IS possible to learn these things. Still, it is important to keep digging deeper beyond techniques to find these hows and whys (I don't have a good description of how to do that, though. It took me 15 years and continues); otherwise, you end up in the situation your friend did. You are lucky. You seem blissfully unaware of how badly messed up "built-in" skills can get when ignoring (or actively countering) those skills is vital to surviving until adulthood. You are right. It is about letting go of fear and ego. But I was raised by my single father, who his father emotionally neglected. My father has the emotional maturity of a middle schooler with a large amount of unresolved trauma. As a result, I was severely emotionally and instrumentally neglected as a child (I had food, shelter, clothing, and hugs [that was the extent of my father's understanding of being a loving parent], but that was it) and suffered CPTSD caused by uncontrolled alcoholism and parentification (as a child, I was forced to ignore my needs and emotions to care for my father). I never saw what a functional and healthy relationship (family or friend) looked like until I was an adult. By then, I had lost the ability to be unguarded or trusting to others, except in unemotional contexts like school or work. So I could only observe the most public and visible interactions between people. So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me?

vinceguidry 4y ago
Your social skills are not "messed up." You still possess the same limbic system shared by billions of humans and hundreds of billions of mammals. You need the same things that everyone else does, love, affection, nurturing, care. These needs are fundamentally how and why humans interact, and tuning into this fact, that you need them, that others need them, that everyone needs them, is how you connect with others. You are not alone. Both of the parents I grew up with had extremely abusive childhoods. My mom's abuse under her stepmother was so bad and visible the whole neighborhood chipped in to give her a break. My step-dad's step-dad's chicanery directly led to his little brother's death. I live with a kid whose mom committed suicide, and his dad blamed him for it. My sister's ex-husband had to take care of his siblings from a very early age. (parentified) Her second ex-husband's brother committed suicide. I managed to escape major damage because my parents made damn sure to not replicate the cycle. Out of all of these people, only one of them felt the need to create a logical system to improve their lives with by, that's the kid whose mom committed suicide. It did not help him significantly. I am having to be the father figure to him that he lacked. They all eventually grew up to be healthy, productive adults, if somewhat emotionally stunted, if only to my observation, and the kid will eventually. None of them will become less emotionally stunted by gamifying their social skills. > So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me? Looking back, one of my biggest influences was this guy that was assigned to 'babysit' me while I was a screw-up in the military. I was exceptionally angry at the military and I simply didn't care anymore. So they had me follow him around. He struck me as being exceptionally friendly and social. His manner with women was easy, I really felt like I could relax around him. He assuredly did not treat human interaction as a skill to learn and I would think back to our times together years later when I was trying to learn 'pick up artist' skills from David DeAngelo and the like. There's nothing any keyboard warrior can do to actually help someone that's hurting as bad as you were. I know this. All I can do is assert the truth, no matter how hard that truth is to hear. I cannot offer you the same experience I just related to you of my military friend. He was 'just talk and listen' as a living example. I strive to offer it to anyone and everyone who sees in me an example to follow. Perhaps the advice should be adjusted to: "Just talk and listen, and if you have trouble just doing this, look to others to show you how"
- solarmist 4y ago
  I keep arguing with you because I feel ignored and invalidated by each of your responses. > None of them will become less emotionally stunted by gamifying their social skills. Who said anything about gamifying social skill? I'm talking about: * Learning to talk to people For example, perspective-taking or learning about the 5 levels of conversation [1]. * Learn to understand your own emotions For example, Why you don't feel anything [2] * Learn to trust other people For example, Why authenticity/vulnerability is vital for connecting with others [3] I'm sad that your only experiences with people attempting to improve their social skills were cliched or in the PUA community, but there ARE real resources out there that will help. I'm happy for you, and I'm glad you're trying to share what you've learned, but again "get lucky by being in close proximity to someone who knows this stuff" is not a repeatable strategy. [1] https://www.habitsforwellbeing.com/five-levels-communication/ https://www.habitsforwellbeing.com/five-levels-communication... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pQBdZ3RdfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pQBdZ3RdfA [3] https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability
  - vinceguidry 4y ago
    > again "get lucky by being in close proximity to someone who knows this stuff" is not a repeatable strategy. Of course it is. Everywhere has highly social people you can watch and learn from. My apologies. I really only try to have rational conversations on the Internet, particularly in places like Hacker News. I do not know you or how best to empathize with you. Everybody is very different. After years of trying, I've learned to let go of the need. Your examples of resources are interesting. Had you led with those first instead of attacking my capacity for empathy, I would have understood better what you meant by skills. I wish you a pleasant Wednesday.
    - solarmist 4y ago
      My bad. You're right; the first part was unnecessary, and I've removed it. I apologize. That said, it wouldn't have felt necessary if you hadn't constantly dismissed and belittled the idea that social skills can be constructively and explicitly learned. Also, I worded the second bit badly. It is repeatable (perhaps even for most people), but it is not a blanket strategy. It requires letting go of a fair bit of fear and distrust of others to get to the point where I could have implemented this. And during that time, the people I attracted and spent time with were the ones who responded to my cautious and closed-off personality. In my twenties, I would literally be spooked if someone got mad at me. I just couldn't process it. As you said in your initial comment: > I can say that it is not pleasant to be around people when the conversation feels forced or awkward. So my social skills actively reduced the odds I would meet people like you. In fact, my best friend for years eventually stopped talking to me because his now wife thought like you and couldn't stand being around me.

vinceguidry 4y ago

Your social skills are not "messed up." You still possess the same limbic system shared by billions of humans and hundreds of billions of mammals. You need the same things that everyone else does, love, affection, nurturing, care. These needs are fundamentally how and why humans interact, and tuning into this fact, that you need them, that others need them, that everyone needs them, is how you connect with others. You are not alone. Both of the parents I grew up with had extremely abusive childhoods. My mom's abuse under her stepmother was so bad and visible the whole neighborhood chipped in to give her a break. My step-dad's step-dad's chicanery directly led to his little brother's death. I live with a kid whose mom committed suicide, and his dad blamed him for it. My sister's ex-husband had to take care of his siblings from a very early age. (parentified) Her second ex-husband's brother committed suicide. I managed to escape major damage because my parents made damn sure to not replicate the cycle. Out of all of these people, only one of them felt the need to create a logical system to improve their lives with by, that's the kid whose mom committed suicide. It did not help him significantly. I am having to be the father figure to him that he lacked. They all eventually grew up to be healthy, productive adults, if somewhat emotionally stunted, if only to my observation, and the kid will eventually. None of them will become less emotionally stunted by gamifying their social skills. > So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me? Looking back, one of my biggest influences was this guy that was assigned to 'babysit' me while I was a screw-up in the military. I was exceptionally angry at the military and I simply didn't care anymore. So they had me follow him around. He struck me as being exceptionally friendly and social. His manner with women was easy, I really felt like I could relax around him. He assuredly did not treat human interaction as a skill to learn and I would think back to our times together years later when I was trying to learn 'pick up artist' skills from David DeAngelo and the like. There's nothing any keyboard warrior can do to actually help someone that's hurting as bad as you were. I know this. All I can do is assert the truth, no matter how hard that truth is to hear. I cannot offer you the same experience I just related to you of my military friend. He was 'just talk and listen' as a living example. I strive to offer it to anyone and everyone who sees in me an example to follow. Perhaps the advice should be adjusted to: "Just talk and listen, and if you have trouble just doing this, look to others to show you how"

solarmist 4y ago
I keep arguing with you because I feel ignored and invalidated by each of your responses. > None of them will become less emotionally stunted by gamifying their social skills. Who said anything about gamifying social skill? I'm talking about: * Learning to talk to people For example, perspective-taking or learning about the 5 levels of conversation [1]. * Learn to understand your own emotions For example, Why you don't feel anything [2] * Learn to trust other people For example, Why authenticity/vulnerability is vital for connecting with others [3] I'm sad that your only experiences with people attempting to improve their social skills were cliched or in the PUA community, but there ARE real resources out there that will help. I'm happy for you, and I'm glad you're trying to share what you've learned, but again "get lucky by being in close proximity to someone who knows this stuff" is not a repeatable strategy. [1] https://www.habitsforwellbeing.com/five-levels-communication/ https://www.habitsforwellbeing.com/five-levels-communication... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pQBdZ3RdfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pQBdZ3RdfA [3] https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability
- vinceguidry 4y ago
  > again "get lucky by being in close proximity to someone who knows this stuff" is not a repeatable strategy. Of course it is. Everywhere has highly social people you can watch and learn from. My apologies. I really only try to have rational conversations on the Internet, particularly in places like Hacker News. I do not know you or how best to empathize with you. Everybody is very different. After years of trying, I've learned to let go of the need. Your examples of resources are interesting. Had you led with those first instead of attacking my capacity for empathy, I would have understood better what you meant by skills. I wish you a pleasant Wednesday.
  - solarmist 4y ago
    My bad. You're right; the first part was unnecessary, and I've removed it. I apologize. That said, it wouldn't have felt necessary if you hadn't constantly dismissed and belittled the idea that social skills can be constructively and explicitly learned. Also, I worded the second bit badly. It is repeatable (perhaps even for most people), but it is not a blanket strategy. It requires letting go of a fair bit of fear and distrust of others to get to the point where I could have implemented this. And during that time, the people I attracted and spent time with were the ones who responded to my cautious and closed-off personality. In my twenties, I would literally be spooked if someone got mad at me. I just couldn't process it. As you said in your initial comment: > I can say that it is not pleasant to be around people when the conversation feels forced or awkward. So my social skills actively reduced the odds I would meet people like you. In fact, my best friend for years eventually stopped talking to me because his now wife thought like you and couldn't stand being around me.