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But to charge that lion you need some other source of energy. So costs should be Lion + power plant which is charging it. You don't need to charge nuclear powe

But to charge that lion you need some other source of energy. So costs should be Lion + power plant which is charging it. You don't need to charge nuclear power plant, obviously.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
The cost of wind or pv is a rounding error in this context.
- defrost 4y ago
  @Schroedingersat specifically for yourself (if you don't have this already) as you appear to have a good handle on actual real world mining issues and an interest in renewable energy .. For anyone else with an interest .. South Australia ( small Australian state with some heavy industry ) has had prolonged periods of getting by on just battery backed renewable energy (wind, solar) with minimal baseload generation support - as part of a larger interstate grid they've exported excess energy to larger neighbouring states. The Tesla built battery pack facility details are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-battery-a-game-changer https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-... and there should be enough actual real world details there to plug into any models people are making about wind + solar + battery at latitudes of 33° from the equator.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  You also forget, that that lion battery will need to be changed as it will get cycled up. But I guess that such detail is also a rounding error.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    That's...the entire point of the comment you completely missed. LCOS + LCOE is much smaller with a LiIon battery, and there are many better options for 95% of the storage needed.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      Once in a 10 years rebuilding a nuclear power plant? You are the one missing the point here.
      - ben_w 4y ago
        How often something needs to be serviced is a different question to how much it costs each time you do. The installation cost of a battery storage system, spread over the lifetime of that system, is a bit less than the the cost of a nuclear plant spread over the lifetime of the nuclear plant. Adding to that number the cost of a renewable power supply to charge that battery, spread over the lifetime of the power supply, makes it swings and roundabouts.
      - Schroedingersat 4y ago
        Yes. Replacing a battery is exactly as hard as building a nuclear reactor. Frequency of replacing parts is precisely the only thing related to cost.
        TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        Of course, we are rebuilding nuclear reactors every 10 years from ground up. And of course that "just changing few MWh in batteries" is the cheapest part of whole battery storage.
        Schroedingersat 4y ago
        No, just digging up a thousand tonnes of uranium and then lugging spent fuel around in several thousand tonnes of copper casks every three to six years. Way easier than recycling a few GWh of batteries every 20 years, or simply using a pumped hydro station.
ben_w 4y ago
Yes, and? Cost for renewable is $a/kWh, for batteries is $b/kWh for installation and $(b/c)/kWh for delivery where c is the effective number of cycles the battery lasts for. a+(b/c) ~= the cost per kWh for nuclear, thought of course I'm painting in broad brushstrokes here and averages hide details.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  So what is your math saying? That battery storage which needs to be replaced every 10 years because it will cycle out + needs to have additional power plants which are providing the power for it is in the end more expensive than just nuclear power plant? I agree.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    No, and I have no idea why you're failing to understand me.

But to charge that lion you need some other source of energy. So costs should be Lion + power plant which is charging it. You don't need to charge nuclear power plant, obviously.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

The cost of wind or pv is a rounding error in this context.

defrost 4y ago
@Schroedingersat specifically for yourself (if you don't have this already) as you appear to have a good handle on actual real world mining issues and an interest in renewable energy .. For anyone else with an interest .. South Australia ( small Australian state with some heavy industry ) has had prolonged periods of getting by on just battery backed renewable energy (wind, solar) with minimal baseload generation support - as part of a larger interstate grid they've exported excess energy to larger neighbouring states. The Tesla built battery pack facility details are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-battery-a-game-changer https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-... and there should be enough actual real world details there to plug into any models people are making about wind + solar + battery at latitudes of 33° from the equator.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
You also forget, that that lion battery will need to be changed as it will get cycled up. But I guess that such detail is also a rounding error.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  That's...the entire point of the comment you completely missed. LCOS + LCOE is much smaller with a LiIon battery, and there are many better options for 95% of the storage needed.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    Once in a 10 years rebuilding a nuclear power plant? You are the one missing the point here.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      How often something needs to be serviced is a different question to how much it costs each time you do. The installation cost of a battery storage system, spread over the lifetime of that system, is a bit less than the the cost of a nuclear plant spread over the lifetime of the nuclear plant. Adding to that number the cost of a renewable power supply to charge that battery, spread over the lifetime of the power supply, makes it swings and roundabouts.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      Yes. Replacing a battery is exactly as hard as building a nuclear reactor. Frequency of replacing parts is precisely the only thing related to cost.
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        Of course, we are rebuilding nuclear reactors every 10 years from ground up. And of course that "just changing few MWh in batteries" is the cheapest part of whole battery storage.
        Schroedingersat 4y ago
        No, just digging up a thousand tonnes of uranium and then lugging spent fuel around in several thousand tonnes of copper casks every three to six years. Way easier than recycling a few GWh of batteries every 20 years, or simply using a pumped hydro station.

ben_w 4y ago

Yes, and? Cost for renewable is $a/kWh, for batteries is $b/kWh for installation and $(b/c)/kWh for delivery where c is the effective number of cycles the battery lasts for. a+(b/c) ~= the cost per kWh for nuclear, thought of course I'm painting in broad brushstrokes here and averages hide details.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
So what is your math saying? That battery storage which needs to be replaced every 10 years because it will cycle out + needs to have additional power plants which are providing the power for it is in the end more expensive than just nuclear power plant? I agree.
- ben_w 4y ago
  No, and I have no idea why you're failing to understand me.