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>You've described the cancelation process, starting with the implicit assumption that you already know what it is. But we can't start with that assumption. Many

>You've described the cancelation process, starting with the implicit assumption that you already know what it is. But we can't start with that assumption. Many consumers simply don't have that knowledge. At a certain point, you have to assume the adult person using a credit card to start a subscription knows what a subscription is and that they would have to cancel it if they don't want to be charged. Apple's dialogs make it very clear when you sign up for a trial both that it will auto-renew at the end, that it is cancelable, what the charges will be if you don't cancel and how frequently those charges will be made. You also have to accept that some people, no matter how much you try to educate them, will be confused or will refuse to be educated. Any ex-retail employee can share stories of customers who walk up to you with something labeled with a very clear price tag and ask how much it costs. Some people are just oblivious, and you can't make your rules around them.

lapcat 4y ago
> At a certain point, you have to assume the adult person using a credit card to start a subscription knows what a subscription is and that they would have to cancel it if they don't want to be charged. I don't know why you bring "adult" into this, because children generally don't have to pay bills. Yes, people know what a subscription is. But when you're talking about trials, I think you're missing the whole point of trials, which is to spend time trying the app. When you start a trial, you know how long the trial lasts, but what you don't know is (1) how long it will take for you to try and evaluate the app and (2) whether you'll end up subscribing in the end. During that period of time and uncertainty, it's easy to forget, especially if you're using multiple apps. You skipped my question about why consumers can't cancel the trial or subscription in the same place that they started it. The real question is this: > you can't make your rules around them How should Apple design the App Store? Apple has 100% control over it and makes choices that can be either consumer friendly or consumer hostile. Auto-subscribing opt-out trials are flat out consumer hostile. Many people despise them, including me, even though I don't recall ever getting accidentally charged for one. The mere possibility of that makes the entire experience more stressful for consumers. To me, everything about the App Store screams a consumer-hostile cash grab, which is in opposition to Apple's portrayal and justification of App Store lockdown as a necessary means to protect consumers. I'm not actually arguing in favor of paternalism. Quite the opposite. I'm arguing that Apple is guilty of rank hypocrisy. The App Store doesn't do what Apple claims it does, that's my argument. By coincidence, I just read this article, which seems relevant: https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/01/european-commission-goes-after-dark-patterns-in-web-shops https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/01/european-comm... The App Store itself is full of "dark patterns". You can say "caveat emptor", which may be good advice, but Apple can't say that to the public, or to the courts, if it wants to maintain its App Store lockdown and monopoly. Software rental, which is a more accurate term for software subscriptions, is not something that most legitimate app developers even wanted, nor was it a model that most of them used when they chose their own, i.e., before the App Store era. Everything that happens in the App Store is based on Apple's design. In various way, Apple pushes "subscriptions" hard on both consumers and developers, because that's what Apple wants.

lapcat 4y ago

> At a certain point, you have to assume the adult person using a credit card to start a subscription knows what a subscription is and that they would have to cancel it if they don't want to be charged. I don't know why you bring "adult" into this, because children generally don't have to pay bills. Yes, people know what a subscription is. But when you're talking about trials, I think you're missing the whole point of trials, which is to spend time trying the app. When you start a trial, you know how long the trial lasts, but what you don't know is (1) how long it will take for you to try and evaluate the app and (2) whether you'll end up subscribing in the end. During that period of time and uncertainty, it's easy to forget, especially if you're using multiple apps. You skipped my question about why consumers can't cancel the trial or subscription in the same place that they started it. The real question is this: > you can't make your rules around them How should Apple design the App Store? Apple has 100% control over it and makes choices that can be either consumer friendly or consumer hostile. Auto-subscribing opt-out trials are flat out consumer hostile. Many people despise them, including me, even though I don't recall ever getting accidentally charged for one. The mere possibility of that makes the entire experience more stressful for consumers. To me, everything about the App Store screams a consumer-hostile cash grab, which is in opposition to Apple's portrayal and justification of App Store lockdown as a necessary means to protect consumers. I'm not actually arguing in favor of paternalism. Quite the opposite. I'm arguing that Apple is guilty of rank hypocrisy. The App Store doesn't do what Apple claims it does, that's my argument. By coincidence, I just read this article, which seems relevant: https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/01/european-commission-goes-after-dark-patterns-in-web-shops https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/01/european-comm... The App Store itself is full of "dark patterns". You can say "caveat emptor", which may be good advice, but Apple can't say that to the public, or to the courts, if it wants to maintain its App Store lockdown and monopoly. Software rental, which is a more accurate term for software subscriptions, is not something that most legitimate app developers even wanted, nor was it a model that most of them used when they chose their own, i.e., before the App Store era. Everything that happens in the App Store is based on Apple's design. In various way, Apple pushes "subscriptions" hard on both consumers and developers, because that's what Apple wants.