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> They were working on a long-term solution You really think the team worked for two years on a solution while banning the issue reporter and keeping radio sil

> They were working on a long-term solution You really think the team worked for two years on a solution while banning the issue reporter and keeping radio silence, and then by pure coincidence got it ready shortly after a complete block of their service was announced?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tptacek 4y ago
Once again: the reporter was banned for reasons that seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue here. We don't have to go into the details of this if DeVault doesn't want to; it's enough to say that the narrative that Google blocked him to shut him up about the Go Module Proxy seems implausible at this point. I don't see him saying that in the first place! But people here are.
- stonogo 4y ago
  "We don't have have to go into the details of this" is disingenuous. We can't go into this because he was banned in violation of their own policies for a second time. I agree it likely wasn't related to their DDoS machine, given the past history of bickering between these two parties, but we can't know because Go's own processes were bypassed and someone just arbitrarily lowered the boom. You can carry all the water you want for the Go people, but their handling of this is unprofessional, and it's not the first time they've treated non-Googlers with utter disrespect for no particular gain. This behavior dates back at least as far as issue #9 in their original bug tracker[1], when the most they could muster for their part was the "Unfortunate" bug label, presumably as in "it's unfortunate for you that we're going to do whatever the hell we want." Go's biggest problem isn't generics, or modules, or the infrastructure, or any other technical issue; it's that the creators are the worst sort of ivory-tower academics who have never had to cooprate with anyone outside their friend circle. They get away with it because they ensconce themselves as a club in organizations who can afford to pay people to work in DevRel vacuums, and I'm sure they consider themselves very successful, but Go is easily the most toxically-run language project since the BFDL days of glibc. I have it easy, since I have the autonomy to decide never to get involved with these people, but not everyone has that privilege, and you're not doing the situation any favors by torchbearing for jerks. https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9
  - tptacek 4y ago
    My reading of this is: "I agree with what you said but I'm still not happy with how they manage things and also they shouldn't call their language Go".
    - stonogo 4y ago
      Ok, I guess I can simplify my message: It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker, but said ban is consistent with the Go maintainers' shit behavior. I'm sorry I distracted you from the point with all the examples and root-cause analyses.
      - morelisp 4y ago
        > It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker This is extremely funny because a) it is true that we don't know why, there are several public and probably more private reasons he could have been banned! take your pick! and yet b) everyone involved agrees it was not due to this ticket, yet discussion of this ticket is always where it gets trotted out.
  - spencerchubb 4y ago
    Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!" ? If I looked hard enough, I could find an obscure language named Rust that was invented before Mozilla's Rust. Same for Dart, Swift, etc
    - zelphirkalt 4y ago
      Hm. As stated like this, it is just an assumption, that you could. I am not convinced. > Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!"? If we translate this to other areas of life, then this becomes quite problematic. Next time some bigger group of people can name themselves like a smaller group of people and say "Who cares?". Well, the minority cares. But it is indeed a typical move of a tech giant to appropriate names for their own products, with or without intention to create associations in people's heads. On one hand one must draw the line somewhere, where one deems things too insignificant to veto a naming, but on the other hand it is never nice to take another ones name and overshadow it. Aside from that, "Go" really is a silly name, as shown when people write "golang" all the time, to avoid confusion. "Go" is difficult to search for. One would have thought, that a company like Google knows that kinda stuff, but apparently not.
arp242 4y ago
They had already implemented a significant part of the solution before the block was announced, as explained by rsc in the top comment on the previous thread a few weeks ago. Again, arguably this took too long. They certainly didn't communicate well. But that they were already working on it before the block announcement can be easily demonstrated.
sangnoir 4y ago
Do you recall how long it took for Go to get generics?
- aliqot 4y ago
  Listen, one mistake every 10 years ain't so bad.
  - wereallterrrist 4y ago
    Good one! Very funny! /me remembers years of being gaslit by Gophers, of all stripes, for asserting that, no, unlike the cult of personality around Go, i did actually know what i was talking about when I said GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use (even better, it was plainly obvious even with pre-1.0 kubernetes). Just cringey. For all the handwavey whinging about Rust, Gophers have treated me far more poorly over things that have been retconned and forgotten years later.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      People explaining how easy it was to start a go project always had me scratching my head. What should the project layout be like? What the fuck is GOPATH and why do I care? Is GOHOME a thing? modules? Which one of these tutorials actually works? It's probably way better now but... yeah maybe Go tooling wasn't quite as solid as the messaging indicated.
    - zaphirplane 4y ago
      > GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use … all the handwavey I personally find people saying something is a garbage dump, nightmare and fire whatever Rather than explain the issue to be credibility reducing phrases Don’t recall what gopath was sold as a fix for
      - wereallterrrist 4y ago
        LOL, I want to frame this comment. Abso-fucking-lutely stunning. Thanks for ironically proving my point and demonstrating just how ignorant the criticism was. I can't get my head around this. I describe a feature, that has long since been ret-conned from the community because it became such a thorn in everyone's side. And you're just like "nah it probably wasn't that bad even though it was excised and is no longer talked about *and I can't even remember what it was for*" (despite being the exclusive only way to do local dep management). Stun-ning. What is was "sold as a fix for"? Man, the hubris of people commenting on things literally completely ignorantly. LOL, really didn't think I'd be gaslit about GOPATH in 2023. Brilliant, keep it up Gophers!
morelisp 4y ago
Do you believe they faked the commit times on https://github.com/golang/go/issues/53644 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/53644 , which added the behavior required for the fix six months before the sr.ht announcement?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tptacek 4y ago

Once again: the reporter was banned for reasons that seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue here. We don't have to go into the details of this if DeVault doesn't want to; it's enough to say that the narrative that Google blocked him to shut him up about the Go Module Proxy seems implausible at this point. I don't see him saying that in the first place! But people here are.

stonogo 4y ago
"We don't have have to go into the details of this" is disingenuous. We can't go into this because he was banned in violation of their own policies for a second time. I agree it likely wasn't related to their DDoS machine, given the past history of bickering between these two parties, but we can't know because Go's own processes were bypassed and someone just arbitrarily lowered the boom. You can carry all the water you want for the Go people, but their handling of this is unprofessional, and it's not the first time they've treated non-Googlers with utter disrespect for no particular gain. This behavior dates back at least as far as issue #9 in their original bug tracker[1], when the most they could muster for their part was the "Unfortunate" bug label, presumably as in "it's unfortunate for you that we're going to do whatever the hell we want." Go's biggest problem isn't generics, or modules, or the infrastructure, or any other technical issue; it's that the creators are the worst sort of ivory-tower academics who have never had to cooprate with anyone outside their friend circle. They get away with it because they ensconce themselves as a club in organizations who can afford to pay people to work in DevRel vacuums, and I'm sure they consider themselves very successful, but Go is easily the most toxically-run language project since the BFDL days of glibc. I have it easy, since I have the autonomy to decide never to get involved with these people, but not everyone has that privilege, and you're not doing the situation any favors by torchbearing for jerks. https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9
- tptacek 4y ago
  My reading of this is: "I agree with what you said but I'm still not happy with how they manage things and also they shouldn't call their language Go".
  - stonogo 4y ago
    Ok, I guess I can simplify my message: It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker, but said ban is consistent with the Go maintainers' shit behavior. I'm sorry I distracted you from the point with all the examples and root-cause analyses.
    - morelisp 4y ago
      > It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker This is extremely funny because a) it is true that we don't know why, there are several public and probably more private reasons he could have been banned! take your pick! and yet b) everyone involved agrees it was not due to this ticket, yet discussion of this ticket is always where it gets trotted out.
- spencerchubb 4y ago
  Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!" ? If I looked hard enough, I could find an obscure language named Rust that was invented before Mozilla's Rust. Same for Dart, Swift, etc
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    Hm. As stated like this, it is just an assumption, that you could. I am not convinced. > Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!"? If we translate this to other areas of life, then this becomes quite problematic. Next time some bigger group of people can name themselves like a smaller group of people and say "Who cares?". Well, the minority cares. But it is indeed a typical move of a tech giant to appropriate names for their own products, with or without intention to create associations in people's heads. On one hand one must draw the line somewhere, where one deems things too insignificant to veto a naming, but on the other hand it is never nice to take another ones name and overshadow it. Aside from that, "Go" really is a silly name, as shown when people write "golang" all the time, to avoid confusion. "Go" is difficult to search for. One would have thought, that a company like Google knows that kinda stuff, but apparently not.

arp242 4y ago

They had already implemented a significant part of the solution before the block was announced, as explained by rsc in the top comment on the previous thread a few weeks ago. Again, arguably this took too long. They certainly didn't communicate well. But that they were already working on it before the block announcement can be easily demonstrated.

sangnoir 4y ago

Do you recall how long it took for Go to get generics?

aliqot 4y ago
Listen, one mistake every 10 years ain't so bad.
- wereallterrrist 4y ago
  Good one! Very funny! /me remembers years of being gaslit by Gophers, of all stripes, for asserting that, no, unlike the cult of personality around Go, i did actually know what i was talking about when I said GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use (even better, it was plainly obvious even with pre-1.0 kubernetes). Just cringey. For all the handwavey whinging about Rust, Gophers have treated me far more poorly over things that have been retconned and forgotten years later.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    People explaining how easy it was to start a go project always had me scratching my head. What should the project layout be like? What the fuck is GOPATH and why do I care? Is GOHOME a thing? modules? Which one of these tutorials actually works? It's probably way better now but... yeah maybe Go tooling wasn't quite as solid as the messaging indicated.
  - zaphirplane 4y ago
    > GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use … all the handwavey I personally find people saying something is a garbage dump, nightmare and fire whatever Rather than explain the issue to be credibility reducing phrases Don’t recall what gopath was sold as a fix for
    - wereallterrrist 4y ago
      LOL, I want to frame this comment. Abso-fucking-lutely stunning. Thanks for ironically proving my point and demonstrating just how ignorant the criticism was. I can't get my head around this. I describe a feature, that has long since been ret-conned from the community because it became such a thorn in everyone's side. And you're just like "nah it probably wasn't that bad even though it was excised and is no longer talked about *and I can't even remember what it was for*" (despite being the exclusive only way to do local dep management). Stun-ning. What is was "sold as a fix for"? Man, the hubris of people commenting on things literally completely ignorantly. LOL, really didn't think I'd be gaslit about GOPATH in 2023. Brilliant, keep it up Gophers!

morelisp 4y ago

Do you believe they faked the commit times on https://github.com/golang/go/issues/53644 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/53644 , which added the behavior required for the fix six months before the sr.ht announcement?