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You are speak about things which called delegates, typed functions, defined by the parameters it gets, and the data it returns. Using delegates does not make a

You are speak about things which called delegates, typed functions, defined by the parameters it gets, and the data it returns. Using delegates does not make a language functional. If you really want to speak about the underlying technology, than every high level language is declarative. You can draw a triangle by drawing three sides, or you can just put this in a function like drawtriangle(v1,v2,v3), and tadam, your language is declarative. The underlying tech is not important, the approach of the developer is important. See my longer answer above

yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
Your comments in this thread have made for a pretty tough read, but I think your angle is finally made clear here. Supposedly, “every high level language is declarative”. It’s an opinion I suppose, but I doubt it’s one you’re going to find much support for. What I think this feels like to most people is that things aren’t what people think they are because you’ve decided to reimagine the commonly used definitions of the words used to describe those things. Not sure if it’s a straw man exactly, but I feel like I’m in a straw man’s garden.
- spamtarget 4y ago
  I'm sorry, i'm speaking with multiple people on multiple threads here, and don't have too much time to express myself perfectly. Every language is declarative is an interpretation that can make sense in certain angle, like when you use some imperative language, you create mini libraries for yourself, and that's already steps to a declarative variation, but this does not changes the fundamental design of the language. But this is not my angle, i say the borders drawn up by the way how you, as a programmer, approach solving a problem. My take is declarative when you define the *end result* you want to get. You certainly don't do this with SQL, because that case the your product (what you write in the query) would be the end result set, the data itself. Of course in case of HTML you don't literally draw in the rectangle in the code, but you describe the end result. This is the difference. Other arguments you wrote is out of scope for me regarding this conversation.
  - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
    That's quite the slippery slope though. You don't literally draw a rectangle with HTML, but you also don't tell the database's query planner how to do its job. You're also not comparing things on equal terms. HTML isn't any kind of programming or scripting language. If I understand you correctly, SQL would only be declarative if the user literally wrote the entire result set of the query. This would then obviate the need for SQL. The result set of a query is called "data". It's not a declarative language. You're free to redefine terms, but as I mentioned, you're going to have a hard time finding people to agree with you.
    - spamtarget 4y ago
      Technical and implementation details again. When we speak about programming paradigm, we speak about the language alone, not any software system, this is a theoretical discussion. It does not matter how it is executed, what matter is how you express yourself in that language to achieve your goals. There are no bits, bytes and cpus in this conversation. This is classification and taxonomy of artificial languages created for other purpose than communication between 2 persons. In SQL you gives instruction in a functional way of thinking. Functional programming is a restricted variation of imperative one for a purpose the same way how object oriented programming is basically structured programming with restrictions imposed on the programmer (for a purpose again, and a very good reason for that). So fundamentally SQL is imperative, but the details of that completely hidden and therefore irrelevant. In HTML you describe the result itself. So "SQL would only be declarative if the user literally wrote the entire result set of the query" is not completely, but somewhat true. The way how you define a result can vary, but SQL definitely does not do that. But the way how i can imagine SQL as declarative, if i "programming by example" or ask chatgpt to translate my natural language and create the query. But these are forced examples, because IMO SQL is absolutely not declarative, and cant really be. If HTML is a programming language or not, it's debatable, but i think it's enough that is a language (programming or not) which is designed to describe a flow-kind of a text layout (like a word file) in the first versions, then other visible elements, so i think it's not completely, but kinda irrelevant question from the viewpoint of paradigm.

yakshaving_jgt 4y ago

Your comments in this thread have made for a pretty tough read, but I think your angle is finally made clear here. Supposedly, “every high level language is declarative”. It’s an opinion I suppose, but I doubt it’s one you’re going to find much support for. What I think this feels like to most people is that things aren’t what people think they are because you’ve decided to reimagine the commonly used definitions of the words used to describe those things. Not sure if it’s a straw man exactly, but I feel like I’m in a straw man’s garden.

spamtarget 4y ago
I'm sorry, i'm speaking with multiple people on multiple threads here, and don't have too much time to express myself perfectly. Every language is declarative is an interpretation that can make sense in certain angle, like when you use some imperative language, you create mini libraries for yourself, and that's already steps to a declarative variation, but this does not changes the fundamental design of the language. But this is not my angle, i say the borders drawn up by the way how you, as a programmer, approach solving a problem. My take is declarative when you define the *end result* you want to get. You certainly don't do this with SQL, because that case the your product (what you write in the query) would be the end result set, the data itself. Of course in case of HTML you don't literally draw in the rectangle in the code, but you describe the end result. This is the difference. Other arguments you wrote is out of scope for me regarding this conversation.
- yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
  That's quite the slippery slope though. You don't literally draw a rectangle with HTML, but you also don't tell the database's query planner how to do its job. You're also not comparing things on equal terms. HTML isn't any kind of programming or scripting language. If I understand you correctly, SQL would only be declarative if the user literally wrote the entire result set of the query. This would then obviate the need for SQL. The result set of a query is called "data". It's not a declarative language. You're free to redefine terms, but as I mentioned, you're going to have a hard time finding people to agree with you.
  - spamtarget 4y ago
    Technical and implementation details again. When we speak about programming paradigm, we speak about the language alone, not any software system, this is a theoretical discussion. It does not matter how it is executed, what matter is how you express yourself in that language to achieve your goals. There are no bits, bytes and cpus in this conversation. This is classification and taxonomy of artificial languages created for other purpose than communication between 2 persons. In SQL you gives instruction in a functional way of thinking. Functional programming is a restricted variation of imperative one for a purpose the same way how object oriented programming is basically structured programming with restrictions imposed on the programmer (for a purpose again, and a very good reason for that). So fundamentally SQL is imperative, but the details of that completely hidden and therefore irrelevant. In HTML you describe the result itself. So "SQL would only be declarative if the user literally wrote the entire result set of the query" is not completely, but somewhat true. The way how you define a result can vary, but SQL definitely does not do that. But the way how i can imagine SQL as declarative, if i "programming by example" or ask chatgpt to translate my natural language and create the query. But these are forced examples, because IMO SQL is absolutely not declarative, and cant really be. If HTML is a programming language or not, it's debatable, but i think it's enough that is a language (programming or not) which is designed to describe a flow-kind of a text layout (like a word file) in the first versions, then other visible elements, so i think it's not completely, but kinda irrelevant question from the viewpoint of paradigm.