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> In 2019, I called this phenomenon “workism.” In a time of declining religiosity, rich Americans seemed to turn to their career to fill the spiritual vacuum at

> In 2019, I called this phenomenon “workism.” In a time of declining religiosity, rich Americans seemed to turn to their career to fill the spiritual vacuum at the center of their life. For better or (very often) for worse, their desk had become their altar. I find this a very strange idea, and I think it's mostly formed by looking at something without understanding it. The people's motivation the author finds is "they've replaced religion with work". Why isn't it more practical: there's a lot of stuff to do and they want it done, so they do it? Maybe it's just a divide where neither side understands the other, but I've never understood people who see a big task they want done and don't sink their teeth into it and work hard to get it done. I guess on Orwell's Animal Farm, there's Boxer and there's Napoleon, and Napoleon wonders why Boxer works so hard.

piva00 4y ago
> there's a lot of stuff to do and they want it done, so they do it? Why they do it though? What's this deep longing that causes them to be more productive instead of, you know, enjoying life? There will always be lots to be done, and the more that is done the more work will be created to be done on top. I do agree with the point that losing some sense of spirituality (not necessarily a religious/supernatural one) has removed at least one facet of facing life as a human. Doing work for the sake of feeling accomplished by completing a task seems very meaningless when you are aware you only have one life to experience whatever your soul will be able to, digging your teeth into an endless stream of stuff to do don't really aggrandise your soul, it just makes you a more efficient little human machine.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Why do people in (at least some) poor countries work more (not necessarily more productive for lack of machinery etc, but certainly more) than those in rich countries? I believe because they need to do more to survive or increase their quality of life. I'm convinced that there are many things that need just raw manpower thrown at them to make society run as well as it does, and if we all did what in Germany is called "Dienst nach Vorschrift" (aka only do the minimum contractually required), we'd quickly end up with things falling apart. To me it roughly boils down to Kant: act in a way that could be made into law. To prioritize ones leisure and comfort over the needs of society doesn't feel like something we could make into law and still keep being a society.
  - piva00 4y ago
    > Why do people in (at least some) poor countries work more (not necessarily more productive for lack of machinery etc, but certainly more) than those in rich countries? I believe because they need to do more to survive or increase their quality of life. I'm originally from one of these poorer countries. People do work longer because of survival, because if they don't work as long someone else will and given the lack of employment it become a cutthroat environment for survival of the one willing to sacrifice more, the bosses exploit that even further by dangling the guillotine all the time, "work longer or I will find someone that will". This isn't beneficial to a society, at all. It's a system of oppression. > I'm convinced that there are many things that need just raw manpower thrown at them to make society run as well as it does And we are constantly working to automate or create machinery that makes those more efficient, requiring less manpower when labour gets more expensive. The whole goal should be to work less, not more, work smarter and more efficiently so it requires less hours of someone's life to perform a necessary job for society. Prioritising one's leisure and free time should be the main driver to work smarter, I've seen so many human lives being wasted away in bullshit jobs and inefficient work at my home country that I wouldn't ever propose that work by itself should be prioritised, workers are not the ones gaining the most out of their work and while this system is in place it will be an eternal struggle between being a servant to some capitalist because you depend on that for survival and living your life to the fullest. I prefer to prioritise my life over someone's else bullshit vision for how to accumulate more capital. If you are going the Kantian way, this could be made into law: benefits and gains of a worker's work should be directed to other workers, to invest in whatever is needed for workers having to work less. So I'd say I'm much more into Bertrand Russell's philosophy camp on this topic.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      > People do work longer because of survival That's my point. It's not just because of oppression (but certainly can be), you'll see the same in subsistence farmers. They don't do a 9-5 with a 1 hour lunch break and frequent chats with colleagues, they toil away because they have their work cut out for them and when whoever does the cutting did it, they took them to be much bigger than they are and cut them a large piece. I agree with you: we should work less and smarter. But society needs to be kept upright, and too many people are deciding not to work (or to work against it), and then it quickly becomes a game of chicken where those who care the most/can stand the situation the least will pick up the slack. I'm pretty sure that most advances in productivity will be eaten by growing desires. We have plenty enough to get everyone 20sqm/2000kcal but now we want 70sqm and exotic foods during local winter, and we want to travel the world etc etc.

piva00 4y ago

> there's a lot of stuff to do and they want it done, so they do it? Why they do it though? What's this deep longing that causes them to be more productive instead of, you know, enjoying life? There will always be lots to be done, and the more that is done the more work will be created to be done on top. I do agree with the point that losing some sense of spirituality (not necessarily a religious/supernatural one) has removed at least one facet of facing life as a human. Doing work for the sake of feeling accomplished by completing a task seems very meaningless when you are aware you only have one life to experience whatever your soul will be able to, digging your teeth into an endless stream of stuff to do don't really aggrandise your soul, it just makes you a more efficient little human machine.

luckylion 4y ago
Why do people in (at least some) poor countries work more (not necessarily more productive for lack of machinery etc, but certainly more) than those in rich countries? I believe because they need to do more to survive or increase their quality of life. I'm convinced that there are many things that need just raw manpower thrown at them to make society run as well as it does, and if we all did what in Germany is called "Dienst nach Vorschrift" (aka only do the minimum contractually required), we'd quickly end up with things falling apart. To me it roughly boils down to Kant: act in a way that could be made into law. To prioritize ones leisure and comfort over the needs of society doesn't feel like something we could make into law and still keep being a society.
- piva00 4y ago
  > Why do people in (at least some) poor countries work more (not necessarily more productive for lack of machinery etc, but certainly more) than those in rich countries? I believe because they need to do more to survive or increase their quality of life. I'm originally from one of these poorer countries. People do work longer because of survival, because if they don't work as long someone else will and given the lack of employment it become a cutthroat environment for survival of the one willing to sacrifice more, the bosses exploit that even further by dangling the guillotine all the time, "work longer or I will find someone that will". This isn't beneficial to a society, at all. It's a system of oppression. > I'm convinced that there are many things that need just raw manpower thrown at them to make society run as well as it does And we are constantly working to automate or create machinery that makes those more efficient, requiring less manpower when labour gets more expensive. The whole goal should be to work less, not more, work smarter and more efficiently so it requires less hours of someone's life to perform a necessary job for society. Prioritising one's leisure and free time should be the main driver to work smarter, I've seen so many human lives being wasted away in bullshit jobs and inefficient work at my home country that I wouldn't ever propose that work by itself should be prioritised, workers are not the ones gaining the most out of their work and while this system is in place it will be an eternal struggle between being a servant to some capitalist because you depend on that for survival and living your life to the fullest. I prefer to prioritise my life over someone's else bullshit vision for how to accumulate more capital. If you are going the Kantian way, this could be made into law: benefits and gains of a worker's work should be directed to other workers, to invest in whatever is needed for workers having to work less. So I'd say I'm much more into Bertrand Russell's philosophy camp on this topic.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > People do work longer because of survival That's my point. It's not just because of oppression (but certainly can be), you'll see the same in subsistence farmers. They don't do a 9-5 with a 1 hour lunch break and frequent chats with colleagues, they toil away because they have their work cut out for them and when whoever does the cutting did it, they took them to be much bigger than they are and cut them a large piece. I agree with you: we should work less and smarter. But society needs to be kept upright, and too many people are deciding not to work (or to work against it), and then it quickly becomes a game of chicken where those who care the most/can stand the situation the least will pick up the slack. I'm pretty sure that most advances in productivity will be eaten by growing desires. We have plenty enough to get everyone 20sqm/2000kcal but now we want 70sqm and exotic foods during local winter, and we want to travel the world etc etc.