10 ms·

I got a System76 last year and I have no urge to go back to Windows. I was worried from prior experience with desktop Linux 10+ years ago that I'd be suffering

by kibwen 4y ago

I got a System76 last year and I have no urge to go back to Windows. I was worried from prior experience with desktop Linux 10+ years ago that I'd be suffering a constant toll of minor breakage and annoyances, but it's been a lovely experience. (It's also possible that every Linux DE these days is this good, I only have a single sample.)

okamiueru 4y ago
I was about to reply to you before reading your last sentence. I'd say that is very much the case. In fact, I tried pop! out of curiosity, and found that I liked it less than arch + gnome. At least overall, there was a little mix of pros and cons.
colordrops 4y ago
My experience now is that the Windows desktop is intolerable compared to Linux at this point. Overwrought, buggy, and confusing. Mac is better but it's far too locked down. If you are willing to put some effort into customization, especially with tiling window managers and other WMs besides gnome, you can get a sublimely efficient and natural experience. I'm currently using Sway and it's vastly better than commercial desktops for software dev.
- doubled112 4y ago
  I find Mac’s desktop experience to be really limited. I was shipped one from work and it didn’t grow on me at all. Fancy Zones is fantastic on Windows, corner tiling is at least a thing in most Linux DEs, and then there’s Mac. Same way window management worked in System 7. Maybe worse because there was at least a visible grab corner back then. I’m not sure how people use their touchpads without middle click emulation either.
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    You can install Magnet on macOS to get this corner snapping/tiling functionality, it's nice. > I’m not sure how people use their touchpads without middle click emulation either. Because macOS application doesn't need and not designed for it.
    - gigatexal 4y ago
      Why use a bandaid when you can get proper tiling in a bespoke window manager on Linux/BSD.
      - bayindirh 4y ago
        Not everyone uses or wants to use Linux. Or they prefer to keep a macOS system alongside their Linux system(s). I don't see value in showing the other side of the fence when someone doesn't interested on the other side.
        gigatexal 4y ago
        Unless you're living in XCode all day long or beholden to Final Cut then what does MacOS give you that you can't find on a truly open OS? Of course I am not forcing or coercing anyone to move to an OS they're not productive in. I am just saying keep an open mind to Linux. I tried the Magnet approach when I was a die-hard MacOS fan and apologist and it just didn't work as well as i3 does. I literally went to Linux because of i3 and stayed because everything "just works" like it used to on teh Mac.
        bayindirh 4y ago
        Well, I'm using Linux for 20 years and macOS for 16 years at this point. I prefer Linux desktops and Mac Notebooks, due to hardware quality, and having an alternative OS in my life, so I can port features between them while developing something (i.e. The code I develop contains best features of both OSes where appropriate). I'm also using KDE close to 15 years at this point, since 3.5.x and I'd prefer it over anything tiling or floating because of the feature set and power it brings. So, why someone would want to use macOS? It's not only XCode and Final Cut (I prefer Eclipse on all platforms). Omnigraffle for example. A tool which can draw diagrams and technical diagrams, Dia can't come close, or any other alternative I tried. Same for MindNode. More powerful mind mapping solutions exist on Linux, but MindNode works like an extension of your brain. I can create gigantic maps in minutes, limited by my typing speed. Another example is Scan Thing. It's mostly an implementation thing, but that thing works so well for extracting text and images. Well, while we're talking about text, we can talk about Prizmo, which can correct the curves of camera scanned images and then OCR them, so PDF Pen Pro, which is a power tool for editing PDFs. There also fun novelty tools like Monodraw which I use to draw ASCII diagrams for my code, and leave it as a comment inside my codebases. Is Linux side gloom, then? Of course not. Kid3 is irreplaceable, so Gwenview, and macOS has no equivalent of it. Many of the other tools I use on macOS are built-ins for Linux systems and work much better than their macOS counterparts by leaps and bounds. Darktable is a powerhouse for photo post-processing, and while macOS alternatives exist, they're not as good as Darktable for my use cases. So both sides have very good applications, macOS has hardware advantage on mobile side. The main reason I keep macOS on the mobile side because it's a POSIX compliant UNIX at the core, so it can work with Linux systems reasonably well, and yes I like the hardware and having another reference point to see where the world is headed. Living in echo chambers is not good, IMHO.
  - dsego 4y ago
    Rectangle brings that and works seamlessly https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/ > I’m not sure how people use their touchpads without middle click emulation either. Because there is no need for middle click on mac? Not sure when you would use it, but there is probably a different combo (maybe even superior?) for whatever action that's mapped to a middle click. There is no emulation of a scroll wheel either.
    - ac29 4y ago
      > Because there is no need for middle click on mac? Not sure when you would use it, but there is probably a different combo (maybe even superior?) for whatever action that's mapped to a middle click. Middle click opens a link in a new tab. A quick search suggests this isnt possible on Mac OS using the touchpad, which would personally drive me crazy.
      - dacohenii 4y ago
        BetterTouchTool can do this! I too would go crazy without it.
      - dsego 4y ago
        cmd + left click
      - dsego 4y ago
        On the opposite side, force clicking on a word in MacOS opens a dictionary popup with the definition, I couldn't live without it.
- adiM 4y ago
  I am a long time Linux desktop user (20+ years) but am still forced to keep a copy of windows around to use Adobe Acrobat for filling and signing forms. I have tried various Linux pdf applications (including commercial ones), using Adobe Acrobat via wine/crossover but haven't found a solution that works across the board. That is the only holdout from not having to interact with windows/mac.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Sejda pdf works well enough for me.
  - cam_l 4y ago
    Even if you are using windows, there is no reason to subject yourself to the bin fire that is Acrobat. Literally[0] every single other PDF program is better, faster, cheaper, easier to use than acrobat. Plus many of them don't randomly crash and burn half your CPU usage until you kill them like acrobat does. [0] No, clearly I haven't actually tried all them, don't be so pedantic.
    - Galanwe 4y ago
      Reading PDFs is no problem, I use `evince` since ~15 years and it does the job. I _very_ regularly have to sign documents though, and as OP said, nothing beats Adobe for that. I even pay the subscription so that I can have it on my phone, sign on the go, etc.
  - eynsham 4y ago
    Libre Office Draw works surprisingly well.
    - rand0mx1 4y ago
      Only when your system have fonts exactly as used in pdfs
  - colordrops 4y ago
    I've used Xournal to fill out PDFs on Linux.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  I lost any hope on the "Year of Desktop Linux" around the time Windows 7 came out. Nowadays the only place I still use GNU/Linux as desktop experience, is my aging Asus netbook. When it dies, it will most likely be replaced by a device from Apple/Google/Microsoft ecosystems.
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    You won't believe how things changed since then. You need to install at least dozen applications on macOS to come near to features/capabilities of a run of the mill KDE desktop. GNOME also improved a ton, it seems, but I'm not using it for a long long time. macOS is lean, but doesn't have the composability and flexibility of Linux at any level. Things designed to add this composability feels bolted on loosely and limited at utility.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      The typical reply from Linux folks, "but things have improved so much", including missing the point I am aware of the current experience. Most folks don't want a "go fishing experience", they want a prepared meal.
      - bayindirh 4y ago
        Well, I'm pretty aware that you know current experience way better than all of us, combined. On the other hand, our parents, partners and non-technical friends use their Linux systems without ever calling us, the venerable yet dumb as a dead tree "Linux folks".
        pjmlp 4y ago
        Unless you're speaking about ChromeOS and Android, which take the Linux kernel as implementation detail, and replace the GNU userspace with Web and Java based technologies, I pretty much doubt it, given the 2% market share of Linux Desktop usage across the globe.
NovaPenguin 4y ago
In a way it has stripped out a little of the fun of it, but that is a very VERY minor thing by comparison to systems that now just work! As for Desktop environments, it is very rare that I have had any game breaking events on these for a very long time. The foundations are mature and hardened nowadays. I have had the occasional issue on a elderly T400 Thinkpad when transferring large files on Mate and Enlightenment DE but I get the feeling that is potentially a hardware issue.
- pkulak 4y ago
  Oh, you can still have fun. Just run something that's not a a full DE. My Sway setup is super stable now, but only after an ungodly amount of tinkering. :D
  - NovaPenguin 4y ago
    I think it is just a part of slightly yearning for the heady days of youth. A few times I have come across younger people who are sort of upset that they missed the earlier years of computing. I mean I get it, but they are so lucky to be inheriting a world of computing that is much more rock solid than anything we used to have. No configuring autoexe.bat /config.sys or the joys of Win95 just stopping for... some reason. Also if I want to relive the early days of Linux, PinePhone has got me covered. ;)
    - II2II 4y ago
      I don't entirely blame them for feeling as though they missed out. If you are technically inclined, those old machines were much more accessible, everything was new, and they presented meaningful ways to push the limits while working individually or with a small group of friends. In contrast, everything today is either handed to them on a silver platter or requires significant investment. Well, almost everything. I find microcontrollers offer some of that old spirit.
gigatexal 4y ago
Yup, all the years of incremental improvements have really made the whole experience amazing. I switched from MacOS a few years ago and never looked back. It's been amazing. Fedora 36 + i3wm and Steam+Proton for gaming. It's as close to the perfect workstation/gaming/fun environment that I can think of.

by kibwen 4y ago

okamiueru 4y ago

I was about to reply to you before reading your last sentence. I'd say that is very much the case. In fact, I tried pop! out of curiosity, and found that I liked it less than arch + gnome. At least overall, there was a little mix of pros and cons.

colordrops 4y ago

My experience now is that the Windows desktop is intolerable compared to Linux at this point. Overwrought, buggy, and confusing. Mac is better but it's far too locked down. If you are willing to put some effort into customization, especially with tiling window managers and other WMs besides gnome, you can get a sublimely efficient and natural experience. I'm currently using Sway and it's vastly better than commercial desktops for software dev.

doubled112 4y ago
I find Mac’s desktop experience to be really limited. I was shipped one from work and it didn’t grow on me at all. Fancy Zones is fantastic on Windows, corner tiling is at least a thing in most Linux DEs, and then there’s Mac. Same way window management worked in System 7. Maybe worse because there was at least a visible grab corner back then. I’m not sure how people use their touchpads without middle click emulation either.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  You can install Magnet on macOS to get this corner snapping/tiling functionality, it's nice. > I’m not sure how people use their touchpads without middle click emulation either. Because macOS application doesn't need and not designed for it.
  - gigatexal 4y ago
    Why use a bandaid when you can get proper tiling in a bespoke window manager on Linux/BSD.
    - bayindirh 4y ago
      Not everyone uses or wants to use Linux. Or they prefer to keep a macOS system alongside their Linux system(s). I don't see value in showing the other side of the fence when someone doesn't interested on the other side.
      - gigatexal 4y ago
        Unless you're living in XCode all day long or beholden to Final Cut then what does MacOS give you that you can't find on a truly open OS? Of course I am not forcing or coercing anyone to move to an OS they're not productive in. I am just saying keep an open mind to Linux. I tried the Magnet approach when I was a die-hard MacOS fan and apologist and it just didn't work as well as i3 does. I literally went to Linux because of i3 and stayed because everything "just works" like it used to on teh Mac.
        bayindirh 4y ago
        Well, I'm using Linux for 20 years and macOS for 16 years at this point. I prefer Linux desktops and Mac Notebooks, due to hardware quality, and having an alternative OS in my life, so I can port features between them while developing something (i.e. The code I develop contains best features of both OSes where appropriate). I'm also using KDE close to 15 years at this point, since 3.5.x and I'd prefer it over anything tiling or floating because of the feature set and power it brings. So, why someone would want to use macOS? It's not only XCode and Final Cut (I prefer Eclipse on all platforms). Omnigraffle for example. A tool which can draw diagrams and technical diagrams, Dia can't come close, or any other alternative I tried. Same for MindNode. More powerful mind mapping solutions exist on Linux, but MindNode works like an extension of your brain. I can create gigantic maps in minutes, limited by my typing speed. Another example is Scan Thing. It's mostly an implementation thing, but that thing works so well for extracting text and images. Well, while we're talking about text, we can talk about Prizmo, which can correct the curves of camera scanned images and then OCR them, so PDF Pen Pro, which is a power tool for editing PDFs. There also fun novelty tools like Monodraw which I use to draw ASCII diagrams for my code, and leave it as a comment inside my codebases. Is Linux side gloom, then? Of course not. Kid3 is irreplaceable, so Gwenview, and macOS has no equivalent of it. Many of the other tools I use on macOS are built-ins for Linux systems and work much better than their macOS counterparts by leaps and bounds. Darktable is a powerhouse for photo post-processing, and while macOS alternatives exist, they're not as good as Darktable for my use cases. So both sides have very good applications, macOS has hardware advantage on mobile side. The main reason I keep macOS on the mobile side because it's a POSIX compliant UNIX at the core, so it can work with Linux systems reasonably well, and yes I like the hardware and having another reference point to see where the world is headed. Living in echo chambers is not good, IMHO.
- dsego 4y ago
  Rectangle brings that and works seamlessly https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/ > I’m not sure how people use their touchpads without middle click emulation either. Because there is no need for middle click on mac? Not sure when you would use it, but there is probably a different combo (maybe even superior?) for whatever action that's mapped to a middle click. There is no emulation of a scroll wheel either.
  - ac29 4y ago
    > Because there is no need for middle click on mac? Not sure when you would use it, but there is probably a different combo (maybe even superior?) for whatever action that's mapped to a middle click. Middle click opens a link in a new tab. A quick search suggests this isnt possible on Mac OS using the touchpad, which would personally drive me crazy.
    - dacohenii 4y ago
      BetterTouchTool can do this! I too would go crazy without it.
    - dsego 4y ago
      cmd + left click
    - dsego 4y ago
      On the opposite side, force clicking on a word in MacOS opens a dictionary popup with the definition, I couldn't live without it.
adiM 4y ago
I am a long time Linux desktop user (20+ years) but am still forced to keep a copy of windows around to use Adobe Acrobat for filling and signing forms. I have tried various Linux pdf applications (including commercial ones), using Adobe Acrobat via wine/crossover but haven't found a solution that works across the board. That is the only holdout from not having to interact with windows/mac.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Sejda pdf works well enough for me.
- cam_l 4y ago
  Even if you are using windows, there is no reason to subject yourself to the bin fire that is Acrobat. Literally[0] every single other PDF program is better, faster, cheaper, easier to use than acrobat. Plus many of them don't randomly crash and burn half your CPU usage until you kill them like acrobat does. [0] No, clearly I haven't actually tried all them, don't be so pedantic.
  - Galanwe 4y ago
    Reading PDFs is no problem, I use `evince` since ~15 years and it does the job. I _very_ regularly have to sign documents though, and as OP said, nothing beats Adobe for that. I even pay the subscription so that I can have it on my phone, sign on the go, etc.
- eynsham 4y ago
  Libre Office Draw works surprisingly well.
  - rand0mx1 4y ago
    Only when your system have fonts exactly as used in pdfs
- colordrops 4y ago
  I've used Xournal to fill out PDFs on Linux.
pjmlp 4y ago
I lost any hope on the "Year of Desktop Linux" around the time Windows 7 came out. Nowadays the only place I still use GNU/Linux as desktop experience, is my aging Asus netbook. When it dies, it will most likely be replaced by a device from Apple/Google/Microsoft ecosystems.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  You won't believe how things changed since then. You need to install at least dozen applications on macOS to come near to features/capabilities of a run of the mill KDE desktop. GNOME also improved a ton, it seems, but I'm not using it for a long long time. macOS is lean, but doesn't have the composability and flexibility of Linux at any level. Things designed to add this composability feels bolted on loosely and limited at utility.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    The typical reply from Linux folks, "but things have improved so much", including missing the point I am aware of the current experience. Most folks don't want a "go fishing experience", they want a prepared meal.
    - bayindirh 4y ago
      Well, I'm pretty aware that you know current experience way better than all of us, combined. On the other hand, our parents, partners and non-technical friends use their Linux systems without ever calling us, the venerable yet dumb as a dead tree "Linux folks".
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Unless you're speaking about ChromeOS and Android, which take the Linux kernel as implementation detail, and replace the GNU userspace with Web and Java based technologies, I pretty much doubt it, given the 2% market share of Linux Desktop usage across the globe.

NovaPenguin 4y ago

In a way it has stripped out a little of the fun of it, but that is a very VERY minor thing by comparison to systems that now just work! As for Desktop environments, it is very rare that I have had any game breaking events on these for a very long time. The foundations are mature and hardened nowadays. I have had the occasional issue on a elderly T400 Thinkpad when transferring large files on Mate and Enlightenment DE but I get the feeling that is potentially a hardware issue.

pkulak 4y ago
Oh, you can still have fun. Just run something that's not a a full DE. My Sway setup is super stable now, but only after an ungodly amount of tinkering. :D
- NovaPenguin 4y ago
  I think it is just a part of slightly yearning for the heady days of youth. A few times I have come across younger people who are sort of upset that they missed the earlier years of computing. I mean I get it, but they are so lucky to be inheriting a world of computing that is much more rock solid than anything we used to have. No configuring autoexe.bat /config.sys or the joys of Win95 just stopping for... some reason. Also if I want to relive the early days of Linux, PinePhone has got me covered. ;)
  - II2II 4y ago
    I don't entirely blame them for feeling as though they missed out. If you are technically inclined, those old machines were much more accessible, everything was new, and they presented meaningful ways to push the limits while working individually or with a small group of friends. In contrast, everything today is either handed to them on a silver platter or requires significant investment. Well, almost everything. I find microcontrollers offer some of that old spirit.

gigatexal 4y ago

Yup, all the years of incremental improvements have really made the whole experience amazing. I switched from MacOS a few years ago and never looked back. It's been amazing. Fedora 36 + i3wm and Steam+Proton for gaming. It's as close to the perfect workstation/gaming/fun environment that I can think of.