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> Maybe the author is talking about an app that you subscribe to outside of the app store No. > I fail to see how apple has any responsibility for "not protec

by lapcat 4y ago

> Maybe the author is talking about an app that you subscribe to outside of the app store No. > I fail to see how apple has any responsibility for "not protecting" you if you don't actually go through their processes for being protected. This seems like a strange statement to me. How is Apple protecting you if you have to look out for everything yourself and make sure you don't forget to cancel one of your possibly many trials or subscriptions on a very specific date? People forget payment dates. This is totally common and normal. It's why many business have auto-pay, so you don't forget to pay your bill on time. In this case, though, Apple is more than happy to automatically take your payment, even if you didn't actually intend to pay. I'm not sure whether this implementation has changed recently or not, but it used to be — and may still be the case — that if you started a trial with an app, and then you deleted the app from your devices because you weren't interested in the app, the trial was still active and not cancelled.

tpmoney 4y ago
>This seems like a strange statement to me. How is Apple protecting you if you have to look out for everything yourself and make sure you don't forget to cancel one of your possibly many trials or subscriptions on a very specific date? You don't have to cancel it on a very specific date, you just go in and cancel it whenever you want. Whatever you've paid for (or whatever time you have left on your trial) will remain and then it simply stops renewing. You don't have to remember anything other than to actually cancel in the first place. > I'm not sure whether this implementation has changed recently or not, but it used to be — and may still be the case — that if you started a trial with an app, and then you deleted the app from your devices because you weren't interested in the app, the trial was still active and not cancelled. Possibly a useful setting, but I think it would be a worse experience if your subscriptions were canceled every time you deleted the app from your device(s). Certainly one can't conclude that just because an app was deleted from a device that the user isn't actually using the app in general. There are any number of reasons to remove an app from a device that aren't "I don't intend to ever use this app or its services again"
- lapcat 4y ago
  > You don't have to cancel it on a very specific date This is again a strange response. You don't have to cancel on a specific date, any more than you have to pay a bill on a specific date. You have to cancel or pay by a very specific date. > I think it would be a worse experience if your subscriptions were canceled every time you deleted the app from your device(s). I was talking about a subscription trial, not necessarily a subscription in general. The auto-renewing trials is where they get you.
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    >You don't have to cancel on a specific date, any more than you have to pay a bill on a specific date. You have to cancel or pay by a very specific date. Yes, usually when you subscribe to something, you must end your subscription before the next renewal or you will be charged again. This is sort of the definition of a paid subscription. However, we can contrast the process of doing this in the app store (cancel any time, without speaking to anyone, in an obvious and well known location, continue to use your paid for services until the end date) with other subscriptions. For example, Adobe Cloud if you are paying monthly requires that you cancel within the last month of your subscription, or not only will you lose the year you've paid for, but you will also be charged a cancelation fee. At least they don't charge you that if you pay for the full year up front and your service continues to the end of the year. Or we could look at the NY Times which has such an awful cancelation experience that they had to settle a class action lawsuit about it. And surely you remember the bad old days of AOL and Comcast dial-up services where the standard recommended procedure was to call and cancel and then watch your credit card statements for the next few months to make sure you didn't get re-added? Heck it was only a year and a half ago that the FTC released their enforcement memo telling companies they would be enforcing actions against them for "click to subscribe, call to cancel" tactics. And let's not forget that a major selling point of financial apps is that they will help you find unwanted/forgotten subscriptions (https://www.rocketmoney.com/feature/manage-subscriptions https://www.rocketmoney.com/feature/manage-subscriptions). But I'm confused now about what you complaint actually is. My original comment was addressing the statement that "[getting] out of the trial and [avoiding] getting charged" was some sort of complex obstacle course. To get out of a trial and avoid being charged, one simply needs to, at any time before they are charged, unsubscribe. My assertion is this is hardly an "obstacle course". Now though we're talking about how you must do this action before you get billed. So is the complaint that getting out is difficult, or that you simply have to get out in the first place?
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
> How is Apple protecting you ... ? The ostensible protection that Apple is providing is from subscriptions for which cancelling is difficult. If the subscription happens through the app then it's found in the same location as every other subscription that's made through any other app. I believe OP's point with their quote ("I fail to see how apple has any responsibility ...") is that with the given examples (Netflix, Spotify) one cannot subscribe using their iOS apps. The user will need to go outside Apple's ecosystem (netflix.com, spotify.com) and subscribe in a way that Apple has no control over. At any rate, I fail to see how this is not user error given that you are sure this is not an app which had its subscription made outside the App Store. If it was made in the App Store, the user is only required to remember to cancel at all. I don't mean to speak against most of what you're saying but many of your arguments read as a non sequitur. It's hard to agree or disagree because it's just hard to follow along. (edit: rephrasing)
- lapcat 4y ago
  > one cannot subscribe using their iOS apps This is all Apple's fault for demanding 30% of their revenue from IAP. > subscribe in a way that Apple has no control over What is the benefit of Apple's control, though? That is the main question. > I fail to see how this is not user error It was user error. It's a very common user error, forgetting to cancel a trial. You're missing the larger picture here, which is that Apple publicizes and justifies its App Store lockdown and cut in terms of consumer protection, claiming that App Store is a very safe place to find and buy apps. If Apple cared about protecting consumers, it would protect them from common errors such as forgetting to cancel a trial. After all, Apple does "protect" consumers from the common error of installing software that they shouldn't from the internet, by completely banning internet app installs on iOS.
  - webworker 4y ago
    I definitely get email reminders about subscription renewals. I can’t remember precisely if that differs for trials, but I imagine it’s just a decision by UX people, not some nefarious entity inside of Apple out to get people.

by lapcat 4y ago

tpmoney 4y ago

>This seems like a strange statement to me. How is Apple protecting you if you have to look out for everything yourself and make sure you don't forget to cancel one of your possibly many trials or subscriptions on a very specific date? You don't have to cancel it on a very specific date, you just go in and cancel it whenever you want. Whatever you've paid for (or whatever time you have left on your trial) will remain and then it simply stops renewing. You don't have to remember anything other than to actually cancel in the first place. > I'm not sure whether this implementation has changed recently or not, but it used to be — and may still be the case — that if you started a trial with an app, and then you deleted the app from your devices because you weren't interested in the app, the trial was still active and not cancelled. Possibly a useful setting, but I think it would be a worse experience if your subscriptions were canceled every time you deleted the app from your device(s). Certainly one can't conclude that just because an app was deleted from a device that the user isn't actually using the app in general. There are any number of reasons to remove an app from a device that aren't "I don't intend to ever use this app or its services again"

lapcat 4y ago
> You don't have to cancel it on a very specific date This is again a strange response. You don't have to cancel on a specific date, any more than you have to pay a bill on a specific date. You have to cancel or pay by a very specific date. > I think it would be a worse experience if your subscriptions were canceled every time you deleted the app from your device(s). I was talking about a subscription trial, not necessarily a subscription in general. The auto-renewing trials is where they get you.
- tpmoney 4y ago
  >You don't have to cancel on a specific date, any more than you have to pay a bill on a specific date. You have to cancel or pay by a very specific date. Yes, usually when you subscribe to something, you must end your subscription before the next renewal or you will be charged again. This is sort of the definition of a paid subscription. However, we can contrast the process of doing this in the app store (cancel any time, without speaking to anyone, in an obvious and well known location, continue to use your paid for services until the end date) with other subscriptions. For example, Adobe Cloud if you are paying monthly requires that you cancel within the last month of your subscription, or not only will you lose the year you've paid for, but you will also be charged a cancelation fee. At least they don't charge you that if you pay for the full year up front and your service continues to the end of the year. Or we could look at the NY Times which has such an awful cancelation experience that they had to settle a class action lawsuit about it. And surely you remember the bad old days of AOL and Comcast dial-up services where the standard recommended procedure was to call and cancel and then watch your credit card statements for the next few months to make sure you didn't get re-added? Heck it was only a year and a half ago that the FTC released their enforcement memo telling companies they would be enforcing actions against them for "click to subscribe, call to cancel" tactics. And let's not forget that a major selling point of financial apps is that they will help you find unwanted/forgotten subscriptions (https://www.rocketmoney.com/feature/manage-subscriptions https://www.rocketmoney.com/feature/manage-subscriptions). But I'm confused now about what you complaint actually is. My original comment was addressing the statement that "[getting] out of the trial and [avoiding] getting charged" was some sort of complex obstacle course. To get out of a trial and avoid being charged, one simply needs to, at any time before they are charged, unsubscribe. My assertion is this is hardly an "obstacle course". Now though we're talking about how you must do this action before you get billed. So is the complaint that getting out is difficult, or that you simply have to get out in the first place?

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago

> How is Apple protecting you ... ? The ostensible protection that Apple is providing is from subscriptions for which cancelling is difficult. If the subscription happens through the app then it's found in the same location as every other subscription that's made through any other app. I believe OP's point with their quote ("I fail to see how apple has any responsibility ...") is that with the given examples (Netflix, Spotify) one cannot subscribe using their iOS apps. The user will need to go outside Apple's ecosystem (netflix.com, spotify.com) and subscribe in a way that Apple has no control over. At any rate, I fail to see how this is not user error given that you are sure this is not an app which had its subscription made outside the App Store. If it was made in the App Store, the user is only required to remember to cancel at all. I don't mean to speak against most of what you're saying but many of your arguments read as a non sequitur. It's hard to agree or disagree because it's just hard to follow along. (edit: rephrasing)

lapcat 4y ago
> one cannot subscribe using their iOS apps This is all Apple's fault for demanding 30% of their revenue from IAP. > subscribe in a way that Apple has no control over What is the benefit of Apple's control, though? That is the main question. > I fail to see how this is not user error It was user error. It's a very common user error, forgetting to cancel a trial. You're missing the larger picture here, which is that Apple publicizes and justifies its App Store lockdown and cut in terms of consumer protection, claiming that App Store is a very safe place to find and buy apps. If Apple cared about protecting consumers, it would protect them from common errors such as forgetting to cancel a trial. After all, Apple does "protect" consumers from the common error of installing software that they shouldn't from the internet, by completely banning internet app installs on iOS.
- webworker 4y ago
  I definitely get email reminders about subscription renewals. I can’t remember precisely if that differs for trials, but I imagine it’s just a decision by UX people, not some nefarious entity inside of Apple out to get people.