8 ms·

People will pay $20K for sport brakes or $10K for an unusual paint color. Acting like you know better than actual customers of FSD whether the $8K, $10K, $12K,

by bhauer 4y ago

People will pay $20K for sport brakes or $10K for an unusual paint color. Acting like you know better than actual customers of FSD whether the $8K, $10K, $12K, or $15K they spent on the software is reasonable for them is the height of arrogance. Also, characterizing the current FSD Beta system as "cruise control" is delusional.

ramraj07 4y ago
If I pay 20 thousand for pink and I get pink there’s no further argument.
- bhauer 4y ago
  Yeah, and if you pay $15K today, you get FSD Beta. For some people, that is worth the price. Again, arguing that you know better about what other people do with their money is arrogant.
  - ryanwaggoner 4y ago
    EDIT: nvm
    - fallingknife 4y ago
      They are investigating, so it is not known whether or not they disagree yet. And even if they did, your argument would still be nothing but an appeal to authority.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - bhauer 4y ago
      This subthread is about the people who system16 criticized for being happy with purchasing FSD. The Justice Department is not acting on behalf of that group of satisfied customers.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Not being a Tesla owner and definitely not someone paying $15k for FSD Beta, I have to ask, when someone does pay $15k for FSD are they told it is FSD or that it is FSD Beta?
    - bhauer 4y ago
      You can see for yourself: https://www.tesla.com/model3/design https://www.tesla.com/model3/design Full Self-Driving Capability $15,000 All functionality of Basic Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control Coming Soon Autosteer on city streets The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
      - dylan604 4y ago
        loads page... cmd-f "beta" 0 results hmmm...some further questioning is warranted. So, for the people actually buying it with the actual contract paperwork and the sales pitch being provided, does the word Beta ever get used and is it fully explained? to me, it looks like another "smear the DoJ for doing their job" campaign by those having the job done to them. it is so in vogue these days
      - nickthegreek 4y ago
        I am noticing the complete lack of the word "beta".
      - system16 4y ago
        Interesting to compare this to the same page from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190407072718/https://www.tesla.com/en_US/model3/design#autopilot https://web.archive.org/web/20190407072718/https://www.tesla... Full Self-Driving Capability Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars. Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces. Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. Coming later this year: Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs. Automatic driving on city streets.
lolinder 4y ago
Tesla's FSD would be better compared to Star Citizen then to a paint job. If you pay $10K for a paint color, you get the paint color. If you pay $20K for sport brakes, you get the brakes. If you pay $15k for Tesla FSD, you get the hope that Tesla will eventually deliver FSD, much the same as a Star Citizen customer is buying the hope that they'll eventually actually be able to fly their ship in a full game. You can still argue that the aspiration is worth the money to the customers, or that they're already getting enough value out of the partially delivered product. But I also think it's reasonable for onlookers to think that there's some level of fraud going on, given the constant promises without delivery.
- bhauer 4y ago
  If you pay $15K today, you get FSD Beta. For some people, the beta is worth the price, even not knowing precisely when it will be more than SAE Level 2. We are talking about the group of people who system16 criticized for being "happy with having paid for FSD." Other peoples' needs and wants differ, and characterizing those needs and wants as if they are plain wrong is arrogant.
  - thefounder 4y ago
    What's the beta used for? If you need to keep your hands on the steering wheel and monitor the FSH I feel it's more of a testing task (which should be performed by qualified personnel) rather than end users on public streets. If the beta software kills someone you are responsible because you didn't stop it on time. Is this something people want?
    - bhauer 4y ago
      It is semi-autonomous driving software, so the use cases are what you might expect. For example, I have seen many Youtube videos where people are using it for supervised semi-autonomous drives. Some say that once you're used to its quirks, it's less stressful/easier to drive this way. In the end, who knows? Who cares? If a customer says they are happy with the purchase, why should someone else tell them they are plain wrong? I can disagree, of course, but I should not tell them they're just wrong for being happy. I don't tell people they're wrong for paying extra for a special paint color.
sumeno 4y ago
> Also, characterizing the current FSD Beta system as "cruise control" is delusional. Agreed, most cruise control systems are considerably better. My cruise control has never tried to swerve me into oncoming traffic.
- bhauer 4y ago
  A system that doesn't have the capability to make turns at all will not make an error when making a turn. By the same token, walking will avoid the risk of being in a highway accident. So by this logic, walking is superior to driving.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    What if you're walking on the highway though? Would that not be considered a highway accident?
  - sumeno 4y ago
    > A system that doesn't have the capability to make turns at all will not make an error when making a turn. Yes, a system that doesn't try to do something is better than one that does it poorly. > By the same token, walking will avoid the risk of being in a highway accident. So by this logic, walking is superior to driving. Again we're on the same page, walking is superior to driving. Although the pesky cars often make it more dangerous and there are limits that make walking impractical at times.
clouddrover 4y ago
> People will pay $20K for sport brakes or $10K for an unusual paint color. But they get the brakes and they get the paint. What they get with supposed "full self-driving" is puffery and lies. Musk's public statements around FSD since 2014 have been lies: https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-next-year-for-th-1848432496 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne... In 2016 Tesla claimed that all Teslas being produced "will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." That was a lie: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... And these days Teslas can't even do full self-parking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA Now the word is that suckers who paid for FSD in a Tesla with Hardware 3 probably won't get Hardware 4: https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-gets-new-self-driving-computer-that-might-not-be-retrofit-to-other-evs https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-gets-new-self... Tesla was recently done for false advertising around FSD: https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-driving-computer-for-free-false-advertising/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-dr... Tesla also admits they have failed to deliver full self-driving but they think they don't need to refund any money because "failure is not fraud": https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-failure-realize-long-term-aspirational-goal-not-fraud/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-fai... Despite the admission of failure, Musk is still running around claiming that FSD will one day magically become the "biggest asset value increase of anything in history": https://electrek.co/2023/01/26/elon-musk-thinks-not-smart-dont-teslas-full-self-driving-claims/ https://electrek.co/2023/01/26/elon-musk-thinks-not-smart-do... It's not even bullshit artistry. It's just bullshit.

by bhauer 4y ago

ramraj07 4y ago

If I pay 20 thousand for pink and I get pink there’s no further argument.

bhauer 4y ago
Yeah, and if you pay $15K today, you get FSD Beta. For some people, that is worth the price. Again, arguing that you know better about what other people do with their money is arrogant.
- ryanwaggoner 4y ago
  EDIT: nvm
  - fallingknife 4y ago
    They are investigating, so it is not known whether or not they disagree yet. And even if they did, your argument would still be nothing but an appeal to authority.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - bhauer 4y ago
    This subthread is about the people who system16 criticized for being happy with purchasing FSD. The Justice Department is not acting on behalf of that group of satisfied customers.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- dylan604 4y ago
  Not being a Tesla owner and definitely not someone paying $15k for FSD Beta, I have to ask, when someone does pay $15k for FSD are they told it is FSD or that it is FSD Beta?
  - bhauer 4y ago
    You can see for yourself: https://www.tesla.com/model3/design https://www.tesla.com/model3/design Full Self-Driving Capability $15,000 All functionality of Basic Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control Coming Soon Autosteer on city streets The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      loads page... cmd-f "beta" 0 results hmmm...some further questioning is warranted. So, for the people actually buying it with the actual contract paperwork and the sales pitch being provided, does the word Beta ever get used and is it fully explained? to me, it looks like another "smear the DoJ for doing their job" campaign by those having the job done to them. it is so in vogue these days
    - nickthegreek 4y ago
      I am noticing the complete lack of the word "beta".
    - system16 4y ago
      Interesting to compare this to the same page from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190407072718/https://www.tesla.com/en_US/model3/design#autopilot https://web.archive.org/web/20190407072718/https://www.tesla... Full Self-Driving Capability Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars. Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces. Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. Coming later this year: Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs. Automatic driving on city streets.

lolinder 4y ago

Tesla's FSD would be better compared to Star Citizen then to a paint job. If you pay $10K for a paint color, you get the paint color. If you pay $20K for sport brakes, you get the brakes. If you pay $15k for Tesla FSD, you get the hope that Tesla will eventually deliver FSD, much the same as a Star Citizen customer is buying the hope that they'll eventually actually be able to fly their ship in a full game. You can still argue that the aspiration is worth the money to the customers, or that they're already getting enough value out of the partially delivered product. But I also think it's reasonable for onlookers to think that there's some level of fraud going on, given the constant promises without delivery.

bhauer 4y ago
If you pay $15K today, you get FSD Beta. For some people, the beta is worth the price, even not knowing precisely when it will be more than SAE Level 2. We are talking about the group of people who system16 criticized for being "happy with having paid for FSD." Other peoples' needs and wants differ, and characterizing those needs and wants as if they are plain wrong is arrogant.
- thefounder 4y ago
  What's the beta used for? If you need to keep your hands on the steering wheel and monitor the FSH I feel it's more of a testing task (which should be performed by qualified personnel) rather than end users on public streets. If the beta software kills someone you are responsible because you didn't stop it on time. Is this something people want?
  - bhauer 4y ago
    It is semi-autonomous driving software, so the use cases are what you might expect. For example, I have seen many Youtube videos where people are using it for supervised semi-autonomous drives. Some say that once you're used to its quirks, it's less stressful/easier to drive this way. In the end, who knows? Who cares? If a customer says they are happy with the purchase, why should someone else tell them they are plain wrong? I can disagree, of course, but I should not tell them they're just wrong for being happy. I don't tell people they're wrong for paying extra for a special paint color.

sumeno 4y ago

> Also, characterizing the current FSD Beta system as "cruise control" is delusional. Agreed, most cruise control systems are considerably better. My cruise control has never tried to swerve me into oncoming traffic.

bhauer 4y ago
A system that doesn't have the capability to make turns at all will not make an error when making a turn. By the same token, walking will avoid the risk of being in a highway accident. So by this logic, walking is superior to driving.
- dylan604 4y ago
  What if you're walking on the highway though? Would that not be considered a highway accident?
- sumeno 4y ago
  > A system that doesn't have the capability to make turns at all will not make an error when making a turn. Yes, a system that doesn't try to do something is better than one that does it poorly. > By the same token, walking will avoid the risk of being in a highway accident. So by this logic, walking is superior to driving. Again we're on the same page, walking is superior to driving. Although the pesky cars often make it more dangerous and there are limits that make walking impractical at times.

clouddrover 4y ago

> People will pay $20K for sport brakes or $10K for an unusual paint color. But they get the brakes and they get the paint. What they get with supposed "full self-driving" is puffery and lies. Musk's public statements around FSD since 2014 have been lies: https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-next-year-for-th-1848432496 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne... In 2016 Tesla claimed that all Teslas being produced "will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." That was a lie: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... And these days Teslas can't even do full self-parking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA Now the word is that suckers who paid for FSD in a Tesla with Hardware 3 probably won't get Hardware 4: https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-gets-new-self-driving-computer-that-might-not-be-retrofit-to-other-evs https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-gets-new-self... Tesla was recently done for false advertising around FSD: https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-driving-computer-for-free-false-advertising/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-dr... Tesla also admits they have failed to deliver full self-driving but they think they don't need to refund any money because "failure is not fraud": https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-failure-realize-long-term-aspirational-goal-not-fraud/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-fai... Despite the admission of failure, Musk is still running around claiming that FSD will one day magically become the "biggest asset value increase of anything in history": https://electrek.co/2023/01/26/elon-musk-thinks-not-smart-dont-teslas-full-self-driving-claims/ https://electrek.co/2023/01/26/elon-musk-thinks-not-smart-do... It's not even bullshit artistry. It's just bullshit.