5 ms·

4 hours is sometimes not enough. I think that we can build a clean grid, but I think: 1) it is orders of magnitude easier if we include nuclear, and 2) even w

4 hours is sometimes not enough. I think that we can build a clean grid, but I think: 1) it is orders of magnitude easier if we include nuclear, and 2) even with a nuclear baseline we will need to build up caches of supplemental longer term storage options such as synthetic fuels. The added resiliency is worth the reduced efficiency.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Nuclear has the same cost issues as coal. Whatever reasonable figure you put on it, it would be better spent on renewables and batteries.
ben_w 4y ago
Nuclear is about the same price as very simple LiIon, and LiIon is one of the more expensive options that regularly gets brought up. Nuclear also comes with a lot of geopolitical concerns, because it's not just "us good guys" who need a working power supply, but also "that rogue state, $insert_country_here". For example, Israel and the Begin Doctrine w.r.t. Syria, Iran, and Iraq. We could also solve the same problem for reasonable $-cost with a really big HVDC line around the planet, with the same criticism: geopolitics is hard, yo.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  > Nuclear is about the same price as very simple LiIon... For what time frame? That is, I can build an X Megawatt nuclear plant, and I can get X megawatts out of it hour after hour, day after day. But if I build LiIon, that's storage - a stock, not a flow. I can build X Megawatts for an hour, but if I need two hours, I have to double the storage.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    As the batteries are rechargeable and have a lifespan mainly limited by charging cycles, what you're describing turns out to make negligible difference. Buy enough for e.g. a week of pure battery use, most of days you're using 1/14th of your total capacity, but that makes the system as a whole last almost 14 times longer between battery replacements than a system that only has the capacity to last overnight.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      So, back to your initial claim: Does nuclear have about the same price as two weeks of LiIon?
      - ben_w 4y ago
        Yes. Sorry, I thought that was obvious, given that time factors out. Two [minutes, hours, days, weeks, months], to a reasonable approximation doesn't change the price of electricity. It's like asking in which fuel tank petrol costs more per litre, the big one or the little one.
        TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        But to charge that lion you need some other source of energy. So costs should be Lion + power plant which is charging it. You don't need to charge nuclear power plant, obviously.
        Schroedingersat 4y ago
        The cost of wind or pv is a rounding error in this context.
        defrost 4y ago
        @Schroedingersat specifically for yourself (if you don't have this already) as you appear to have a good handle on actual real world mining issues and an interest in renewable energy .. For anyone else with an interest .. South Australia ( small Australian state with some heavy industry ) has had prolonged periods of getting by on just battery backed renewable energy (wind, solar) with minimal baseload generation support - as part of a larger interstate grid they've exported excess energy to larger neighbouring states. The Tesla built battery pack facility details are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-battery-a-game-changer https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-... and there should be enough actual real world details there to plug into any models people are making about wind + solar + battery at latitudes of 33° from the equator.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Nuclear has the same cost issues as coal. Whatever reasonable figure you put on it, it would be better spent on renewables and batteries.

ben_w 4y ago

Nuclear is about the same price as very simple LiIon, and LiIon is one of the more expensive options that regularly gets brought up. Nuclear also comes with a lot of geopolitical concerns, because it's not just "us good guys" who need a working power supply, but also "that rogue state, $insert_country_here". For example, Israel and the Begin Doctrine w.r.t. Syria, Iran, and Iraq. We could also solve the same problem for reasonable $-cost with a really big HVDC line around the planet, with the same criticism: geopolitics is hard, yo.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
> Nuclear is about the same price as very simple LiIon... For what time frame? That is, I can build an X Megawatt nuclear plant, and I can get X megawatts out of it hour after hour, day after day. But if I build LiIon, that's storage - a stock, not a flow. I can build X Megawatts for an hour, but if I need two hours, I have to double the storage.
- ben_w 4y ago
  As the batteries are rechargeable and have a lifespan mainly limited by charging cycles, what you're describing turns out to make negligible difference. Buy enough for e.g. a week of pure battery use, most of days you're using 1/14th of your total capacity, but that makes the system as a whole last almost 14 times longer between battery replacements than a system that only has the capacity to last overnight.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    So, back to your initial claim: Does nuclear have about the same price as two weeks of LiIon?
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Yes. Sorry, I thought that was obvious, given that time factors out. Two [minutes, hours, days, weeks, months], to a reasonable approximation doesn't change the price of electricity. It's like asking in which fuel tank petrol costs more per litre, the big one or the little one.
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        But to charge that lion you need some other source of energy. So costs should be Lion + power plant which is charging it. You don't need to charge nuclear power plant, obviously.
        Schroedingersat 4y ago
        The cost of wind or pv is a rounding error in this context.
        defrost 4y ago
        @Schroedingersat specifically for yourself (if you don't have this already) as you appear to have a good handle on actual real world mining issues and an interest in renewable energy .. For anyone else with an interest .. South Australia ( small Australian state with some heavy industry ) has had prolonged periods of getting by on just battery backed renewable energy (wind, solar) with minimal baseload generation support - as part of a larger interstate grid they've exported excess energy to larger neighbouring states. The Tesla built battery pack facility details are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-battery-a-game-changer https://www.cefc.com.au/where-we-invest/case-studies/sa-big-... and there should be enough actual real world details there to plug into any models people are making about wind + solar + battery at latitudes of 33° from the equator.