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Tesla tells investors it’s being investigated by the Justice Department

150 points by nickthegreek 4y ago

electrondood 4y ago
Meh, if it's autopilot/FSD all they have to do is share their own internal stats on safety. Autopilot is 6-7x safer than driving without it, and I assume FSD is similar.
- deleted 4y ago
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- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Firstly, you're saying that they need to see Tesla's own internal stats and then making a stats claim about safety, and that doesn't make some much sense to me. I'm wondering how sharing their internal stats will help - the claim is about whether "Tesla had misled investors and customers by making unsupported claims about the capabilities of its driver-assist features" - do you think their internal stats will prove that they thought their grandiose claims were supported by evidence? Otherwise, I don't know how that will help them.
  - lttlrck 4y ago
    How many shades of gray are there between this and the Nikola truck demo...
    - camjohnson26 4y ago
      Nikola’s demo was ethical by comparison, at least they had a path.
    - zaroth 4y ago
      Nikola’s model truck drove exactly 0 miles under its own power. There have been more than 3 billion miles worth of real-world driving using AutoPilot.
- sidibe 4y ago
  Watch any FSD video on YouTube. I hope you are a better driver than that.
- rnk 4y ago
  They say it's that much safer but the data hasn't been available. They have only said concrete numbers for the number of autopilot beta users. They aren't running as uncrewed taxis like waymo and other companies have been doing. That really suggests they aren't as far along. Tesla will almost certainly have to refund people's money, in part because they keep ratcheting up the hardware requirements and they can't bring all the people along from previous generations of hardware. There's also the issue of claiming funding was secured but it wasn't actually ready apparently, according to the infamous tweet from Musk.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > the data hasn't been available Mercedes leapfrogging Tesla on granting a liability umbrella should seal the case on the latter having a moat in self-driving technology.
    - itsoktocry 4y ago
      >the latter having a moat in self-driving technology. I don't think anything will upset the narrative that Tesla is the technology leader until it's completely obvious. Not Mercedes taking liability, not Waymo operating real driverless robotaxis, not independent comparisons of tech, not videos of FSD crashing into fake children, nothing.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        It does not get more obvious than: > Not Mercedes taking liability, not Waymo operating real driverless robotaxis, not independent comparisons of tech, not videos of FSD crashing into fake children, nothing.
    - aeternum 4y ago
      In what world does purchasing a group insurance policy produce a technology moat?
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Autopilot is 6-7x safer than driving without it Citation? The only thing remotely close I've seen was comparing apples and orange (Autopilot, mostly highway VS all miles without Autopilot).
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >Meh, if it's autopilot/FSD all they have to do is share their own internal stats on safety. Autopilot is 6-7x safer than driving without it, and I assume FSD is similar. For sure! All they have to do is release the data showing just how safe FSD is! ...why have they never done that?
  - danjc 4y ago
    You play your trump card as late as possible. Edit: I wasn't being particularly serious, just riffing on the parent comment. That said, there is a long game playing out around FSD.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      You're suggesting holding evidence from an investigation as a strategy? That'll get you into a whole heap of legal trouble. As others has commented, this is not a game.
    - lesuorac 4y ago
      This isn't a game.
    - itsoktocry 4y ago
      >You play your trump card as late as possible. How is having the leading tech a "trump card" that you don't tell people about? It's literally the best marketing on the planet, if true. More 6d chess from Elon?
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      > Dr. Strangelove : Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, EH? > Ambassador de Sadesky : It was to be announced at the Party Congress on Monday. As you know, the Premier loves surprises.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      What would be the utility in hiding good information from the public? Wouldn't any marketer with a pulse want to demonstrate that their product is good?
- cactusplant7374 4y ago
  Is this comparing disengagements?
- stonogo 4y ago
  It doesn't matter how much safer their tech is than unassisted driving. It matters if their tech works as well as they advertised.
- danso 4y ago
  While the Tesla safety report [0] does compare Teslas with and without Autopilot, and the safety rate does look to be 3-5x better in terms of millions of miles per accident, it's not clear if the stats account for the fact that Autopilot can only be activated in ideal conditions, e.g. highway driving in relatively good weather. In other words, what is the accident rate of non-AP Teslas on highway/freeway only versus the Tesla-AP rate? I'm assuming Tesla doesn't have an easy way to figure out weather at time of accident (of course, wouldn't be hard for a dedicated researcher). But accidents-per-highway-miles only shouldn't be burdensome to calculate and would provide a much more apples-to-apples comparison [0] https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
- deleted 4y ago
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lazyeye 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
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- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > if this would have happened if Elon had not released the Twitter files The Twitter files broke last month [1]. That’s too quick for a federal investigation to launch and make document requests [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/04/business/media/elon-musk-twitter-matt-taibbi.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/04/business/media/elon-musk-... [2] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017023001409/tsla-20221231.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017023... page 86
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    That's bit of an odd claim. Why can't the SEC launch an investigation and make document requests with several weeks notice?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > SEC launch an investigation and make document requests with several weeks notice DoJ. Not SEC.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        According to the links you posted, the SEC would be involved. But regardless, why would the DOJ need more then several weeks of notice?
        JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > links you posted, the SEC would be involved The links are to Tesla’s filings with the SEC. They disclose various requests, including “from the DOJ for documents related to Tesla’s Autopilot and FSD features.” (The SEC is also investigating Musk and Tesla, but that isn’t new information.) > why would the DOJ need more then several weeks of notice Criminal cases are complicated. When there is flight or document destruction risk, Justice can quickly seize and freeze. But requests typically indicate months-old processes.
pupppet 4y ago
Chef's kiss to the the featured image of Otto.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Aurich is a gem.
cowthulhu 4y ago
The wording is a bit vague so it’s hard to tell, but as a Tesla owner I hope they get raked over the coals for the whole “FSD will be released this year” 10 years in a row. Past a certain point it’s not a naive mistake, it’s deliberately lying to boost sales.
- buildbot 4y ago
  At the risk of sounding a little callous, yeah, what did you expect? Tesla has had the same MO since Musk took over. Though also he should still be raked over the coals.
  - reeckoh 4y ago
    There is an old parable about a frog and a scorpion: >A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I am sorry, but it is my nature". Should we accept that the scorpion will always sting its associates, and continue to allow them to hitch rides on frogs? Or should we prevent the scorpions from getting into a position where they can sting others once their nature is readily apparent?
    - timerol 4y ago
      > Though also he should still be raked over the coals. I think GP's position on that question is abundantly clear
    - abfan1127 4y ago
      can we educate frogs, warn scorpions, still allow frogs to give rides, and hold scorpions accountable?
    - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
system16 4y ago
At minimum, I can't see anything other than Tesla being forced to refund FSD purchases. It's fraud, plain and simple. But whether it's due to the embarrassment of being swindled or being drunk on the Kool-Aid, the amount of Tesla owners I know that tell me they are happy for paying up to $15k for what is essentially cruise control, and who honestly believe 'real FSD is only a year away' is shocking.
- consumer451 4y ago
  > At minimum, I can't see anything other than Tesla being forced to refund FSD purchases. Hmm, 285,000 [0] sales of FSD * say $8,000 [1] to be conservative = $2,280,000,000 That's more than I expected. [0] https://electrek.co/2022/12/29/tesla-people-bought-full-self-driving-north-america/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/29/tesla-people-bought-full-self... [1] https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/958/tesla-fsd-price-increase-history https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/958/tesla-fsd-p...
  - danso 4y ago
    With ~3 million Teslas sold worldwide, 285K FSD was much fewer than I had thought. As someone currently not interested in buying a Tesla, I assumed most of the people in its target market are attracted to the FSD claims (reputationally, consumer-facing self-driving seems to be where Tesla is perceived to be the outright leader) and are able to afford it at its FOMO buy-now pricing.
    - bhauer 4y ago
      FSD take rate has always been quite low, even when it was available for a much lower price than today.
    - neither_color 4y ago
      A lot of Tesla drivers aren't "car people" but they're excited by the tech in the car besides FSD. I have zero interest in FSD and would never have gotten a BMW or Mercedes but still got a Tesla. I was ok with a Nissan before Tesla because premium ICE cars were just cars with added bells and whistles + marketing. If I had to get a new EV that isn't Tesla it would be a Rivian, Ford, or KIA because they all offer something unique that isn't just a retrofitted faux-premium ICE car. I don't care about leather seats or wooden accents or impressing anyone. For regular car folks who aren't into luxury Teslas introduce you to a whole new way of interacting and interfacing with your car such as the app control, sentry mode streaming, at-home charging, driver profiles, full touch UI, etc. Plus it smokes cars that try to block you from merging. Tesla delivered something that all of the MBAs combined from the other legacy car companies couldn't.
londons_explore 4y ago
The thing is... If they offered a full refund of the FSD money to any owner today, I'd take a bet that most owners wouldn't take the offer. Thats because FSD now costs more to buy, so these people still think they've got a good deal. It still adds more value to their car 2nd hand than they paid for it.
- creaturemachine 4y ago
  Wait, isn't FSD non-transferrable?
  - prostanac 4y ago
    It’s non-transferable in the sense that it stays with the car, not the owner. If the owner buys a new car they have to buy the FSD package again. But the car they sell on the second hand market will keep the FSD package, unless they sell it back to Tesla. In that case Tesla usually disables it before putting it back on the market.
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      > In that case Tesla usually disables it before putting it back on the market. To do this is a really interesting business move. At first glance, they are throwing away revenue (because a 2nd hand car with FSD presumably sells for more than one without). But they might be able to sell it as an addon or a subscription to the new owner... But the chances of that are probably low to those buying 2nd hand cars.... But also by artificially restricting the numbers of cars available on the market with FSD enabled, those which do have FSD enabled will keep their value better... Which may in turn help with sales of the feature with brand new cars... I bet there is a really big spreadsheet written by an MBA to make this decision...
      - sidibe 4y ago
        They aren't throwing away any revenue. If they sold it as part of the car it would either be discounted roughly like the used vs new value of the car or would make the car look expensive if at full price. Instead people who want FSD can get the car for "cheap" and then pay then pay full price for FSD.
londons_explore 4y ago
I know FSD is non-refundable... But I've got a feeling Tesla has been refunding FSD for really unhappy customers, as long as they're happy to sign an NDA. That's how they've managed to keep this out of the courts for 10 years.
- justin66 4y ago
  As the potential class of litigants increases in size, and Tesla FSD continues to not be a real thing, the odds of a class-action lawsuit increase. Possibly the reason it hasn't happened yet is, even the lawyers thought eventually Tesla would make the thing they sold actually work.
loeg 4y ago
Somehow TSLA is up 20% in the last five days and 3.5% today. Was this already known and priced in?
- sgt 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - spocklivelong 4y ago
    I generally don't like blanket statements like these. TSLA has a bunch of retail investors and sort of a cult like following with Elon, but kid you not, they made a ton of money and that speaks for something.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
      What about those who bought at the top of the market for TSLA?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
      Not a ton, but although I think Musk is an asshole and his cars are crap, I still bought TSLA when it bottomed out last month.
- allemagne 4y ago
  If you take the comments in every HN thread about Tesla seriously then it would absolutely have been priced in.
ffggvv 4y ago
feels like we just allow people to get away with fraud for like a decade before doing anything about it.
gitfan86 4y ago
I have been the "victim" in a few cases like this. Usually it ends up with lawyers getting paid 100% and the victim getting $15 or 6 free months of some service. I suspect the same will happen here, the problem here that the prosecution has is the signed purchase agreement is much more legally binding than a tweet. No where in the signed purchase agreement does it say "Statements from our CEO take precedent over this agreement", in fact it says the opposite basically.
- vkou 4y ago
  A 'Lawyers will take a whole bunch of your money if you behave badly' asshole tax is not the best way to structure society, but its better than not having it. At least it creates a financial disincentive to behave in a fraudulent manner, even if the people you wronged aren't made whole.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  Could exclude yourself from the class and take Tesla to small claims court. You're capped at $10,000, but you don't need a lawyer.
nelsonic 4y ago
All the folks that don’t own a Tesla but feel that people who pay $20k for “beta” software, please Google for “FSD saved my life” to understand how this seemingly irrational expense makes perfect sense from a personal safety perspective. https://www.google.com/search?q=fsd+saved+my+life https://www.google.com/search?q=fsd+saved+my+life having experienced this first-hand I know that I would gladly pay $20k to avoid a potential fatal accident with my family in the car. Yes, it’s miss-sold and feature-incomplete. But it’s a lot more than “cruise control”. It’s easily the most advanced safety feature in a mass produced vehicle.
- clint 4y ago
  [flagged]
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Well, the question is would a normal driver avoid collision? I personally avoided a collision with a truck that was overtaking me (e.g. it was coming from behind) in a shoulder where it did not fit. I swerved to an adjacent empty lane.
  - cptskippy 4y ago
    In my opinion, many of the safety systems while flawed, have an advantage over a human in that their attention never falters. Their judgement might be 25-50% that of a human's but their attention is 100%. AEB isn't going to get distracted with the radio, spilled drink, or dropped phone under the seat. I think they're an augmentation that can make drivers better. I also think Tesla's FSD is too lax and allows drivers to be worse.
    - nelsonic 4y ago
      For sure, advanced driver safety systems can become a crutch. I don’t think driving a Tesla has made me a worse driver… but I am very aware of the lack of 360 cameras and collision avoidance when I drive a different car. Back to the OP though, I’m glad that the DOJ keeps Tesla on their toes. Just hope they don’t stifle innovation. I feel much safer in the Tesla than I do in other (even more expensive/luxury) cars.
birdymcbird 4y ago
[flagged]
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  Our government is corrupt and the Department of "Justice" is a political entity. In fact, it's part of the executive branch and the Attorney General (the head of the Department of Justice) is appointed by the President and can be fired by the President. So the more accurate headline would be, "Joe Biden's Justice Department is investigating Tesla." They will make a big dog-and-pony show about how they're independent from the White House, but at the end of the day, constitutionally, it's just not true. The Justice Department is part of the executive branch and the President is the executive branch. So yes, if Musk had not bought Twitter, there's a good chance that the "Justice" Department would not be investigating Tesla right now. Does that mean they shouldn't be investigating Tesla? Not necessarily - maybe there is a case there. But it's about priorities. And priorities are political.
- phailhaus 4y ago
  Why are you faking writing in broken English? Going back in your comment history, you wrote perfectly fine just 45 days ago. [1] Do you think this somehow gives you more credibility as a "concerned foreigner"? This is embarrassing behavior, and coming from someone who said they were "Sad to see the current state of what gets posted on HN." [2] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34043099#34044679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34043099#34044679 > And is far less qualified too. > I’ve crossed paths with these “consulting” types twice in my career. I don’t mean to generalize, but these so called “engineers” didn’t understand source control or versioning, didn’t understand basic programming concepts, and lacked any sort of communication skills. > It seemed like you were working with someone who watched a couple YouTube videos (and no more than a couple videos) on some framework, with no former programming, design, or critical thinking skills, and they were now given a job title. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042928#34044167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042928#34044167
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    lol, I think some people just got inordinately freaked out by that demo of stylometric analysis of HN users (which was on the front page about 45 days ago...) This comment [0] from yyt554 in that thread seems to be aging well: > Fun exercise would be to find all accounts that suddenly stopped posting around today and correllate them with new accounts created around today. > All those scared folks who naively think that it's not too late yet. Busted. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756734
HelixEndeavor 4y ago
Just got to say I appreciate the visual pun of the "autopilot" from Airplane.
voytec 4y ago
I really like the use of Otto on post's main picture[1]. For those unaware, Otto was an inflatable autopilot in the 1980 movie "Airplane!"[2] [1] https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/tesla-autopilot-flying-800x449.jpg https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/tesla... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane! (with exclamation mark)
- ElCapitanMarkla 4y ago
  Surely you can’t be serious.
  - voytec 4y ago
    I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.
smoovb 4y ago
I spent a fair bit of mental anguish on whether to purchase FSD or not. Thankfully the FSD subscription was out and I reasoned that it could be turned on when valuable enough. The FOMO pricing of FSD seems unnecessary, in retrospect.

150 points by nickthegreek 4y ago

Meh, if it's autopilot/FSD all they have to do is share their own internal stats on safety. Autopilot is 6-7x safer than driving without it, and I assume FSD is similar.

deleted 4y ago
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SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Firstly, you're saying that they need to see Tesla's own internal stats and then making a stats claim about safety, and that doesn't make some much sense to me. I'm wondering how sharing their internal stats will help - the claim is about whether "Tesla had misled investors and customers by making unsupported claims about the capabilities of its driver-assist features" - do you think their internal stats will prove that they thought their grandiose claims were supported by evidence? Otherwise, I don't know how that will help them.
- lttlrck 4y ago
  How many shades of gray are there between this and the Nikola truck demo...
  - camjohnson26 4y ago
    Nikola’s demo was ethical by comparison, at least they had a path.
  - zaroth 4y ago
    Nikola’s model truck drove exactly 0 miles under its own power. There have been more than 3 billion miles worth of real-world driving using AutoPilot.
sidibe 4y ago
Watch any FSD video on YouTube. I hope you are a better driver than that.
rnk 4y ago
They say it's that much safer but the data hasn't been available. They have only said concrete numbers for the number of autopilot beta users. They aren't running as uncrewed taxis like waymo and other companies have been doing. That really suggests they aren't as far along. Tesla will almost certainly have to refund people's money, in part because they keep ratcheting up the hardware requirements and they can't bring all the people along from previous generations of hardware. There's also the issue of claiming funding was secured but it wasn't actually ready apparently, according to the infamous tweet from Musk.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > the data hasn't been available Mercedes leapfrogging Tesla on granting a liability umbrella should seal the case on the latter having a moat in self-driving technology.
  - itsoktocry 4y ago
    >the latter having a moat in self-driving technology. I don't think anything will upset the narrative that Tesla is the technology leader until it's completely obvious. Not Mercedes taking liability, not Waymo operating real driverless robotaxis, not independent comparisons of tech, not videos of FSD crashing into fake children, nothing.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      It does not get more obvious than: > Not Mercedes taking liability, not Waymo operating real driverless robotaxis, not independent comparisons of tech, not videos of FSD crashing into fake children, nothing.
  - aeternum 4y ago
    In what world does purchasing a group insurance policy produce a technology moat?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
alistairSH 4y ago
Autopilot is 6-7x safer than driving without it Citation? The only thing remotely close I've seen was comparing apples and orange (Autopilot, mostly highway VS all miles without Autopilot).
itsoktocry 4y ago
>Meh, if it's autopilot/FSD all they have to do is share their own internal stats on safety. Autopilot is 6-7x safer than driving without it, and I assume FSD is similar. For sure! All they have to do is release the data showing just how safe FSD is! ...why have they never done that?
- danjc 4y ago
  You play your trump card as late as possible. Edit: I wasn't being particularly serious, just riffing on the parent comment. That said, there is a long game playing out around FSD.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    You're suggesting holding evidence from an investigation as a strategy? That'll get you into a whole heap of legal trouble. As others has commented, this is not a game.
  - lesuorac 4y ago
    This isn't a game.
  - itsoktocry 4y ago
    >You play your trump card as late as possible. How is having the leading tech a "trump card" that you don't tell people about? It's literally the best marketing on the planet, if true. More 6d chess from Elon?
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    > Dr. Strangelove : Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, EH? > Ambassador de Sadesky : It was to be announced at the Party Congress on Monday. As you know, the Premier loves surprises.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    What would be the utility in hiding good information from the public? Wouldn't any marketer with a pulse want to demonstrate that their product is good?
cactusplant7374 4y ago
Is this comparing disengagements?
stonogo 4y ago
It doesn't matter how much safer their tech is than unassisted driving. It matters if their tech works as well as they advertised.
danso 4y ago
While the Tesla safety report [0] does compare Teslas with and without Autopilot, and the safety rate does look to be 3-5x better in terms of millions of miles per accident, it's not clear if the stats account for the fact that Autopilot can only be activated in ideal conditions, e.g. highway driving in relatively good weather. In other words, what is the accident rate of non-AP Teslas on highway/freeway only versus the Tesla-AP rate? I'm assuming Tesla doesn't have an easy way to figure out weather at time of accident (of course, wouldn't be hard for a dedicated researcher). But accidents-per-highway-miles only shouldn't be burdensome to calculate and would provide a much more apples-to-apples comparison [0] https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
deleted 4y ago
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lazyeye 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> if this would have happened if Elon had not released the Twitter files The Twitter files broke last month [1]. That’s too quick for a federal investigation to launch and make document requests [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/04/business/media/elon-musk-twitter-matt-taibbi.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/04/business/media/elon-musk-... [2] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017023001409/tsla-20221231.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017023... page 86
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  That's bit of an odd claim. Why can't the SEC launch an investigation and make document requests with several weeks notice?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > SEC launch an investigation and make document requests with several weeks notice DoJ. Not SEC.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      According to the links you posted, the SEC would be involved. But regardless, why would the DOJ need more then several weeks of notice?
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > links you posted, the SEC would be involved The links are to Tesla’s filings with the SEC. They disclose various requests, including “from the DOJ for documents related to Tesla’s Autopilot and FSD features.” (The SEC is also investigating Musk and Tesla, but that isn’t new information.) > why would the DOJ need more then several weeks of notice Criminal cases are complicated. When there is flight or document destruction risk, Justice can quickly seize and freeze. But requests typically indicate months-old processes.

pupppet 4y ago

Chef's kiss to the the featured image of Otto.

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Aurich is a gem.

cowthulhu 4y ago

The wording is a bit vague so it’s hard to tell, but as a Tesla owner I hope they get raked over the coals for the whole “FSD will be released this year” 10 years in a row. Past a certain point it’s not a naive mistake, it’s deliberately lying to boost sales.

buildbot 4y ago
At the risk of sounding a little callous, yeah, what did you expect? Tesla has had the same MO since Musk took over. Though also he should still be raked over the coals.
- reeckoh 4y ago
  There is an old parable about a frog and a scorpion: >A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I am sorry, but it is my nature". Should we accept that the scorpion will always sting its associates, and continue to allow them to hitch rides on frogs? Or should we prevent the scorpions from getting into a position where they can sting others once their nature is readily apparent?
  - timerol 4y ago
    > Though also he should still be raked over the coals. I think GP's position on that question is abundantly clear
  - abfan1127 4y ago
    can we educate frogs, warn scorpions, still allow frogs to give rides, and hold scorpions accountable?
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

system16 4y ago

At minimum, I can't see anything other than Tesla being forced to refund FSD purchases. It's fraud, plain and simple. But whether it's due to the embarrassment of being swindled or being drunk on the Kool-Aid, the amount of Tesla owners I know that tell me they are happy for paying up to $15k for what is essentially cruise control, and who honestly believe 'real FSD is only a year away' is shocking.

consumer451 4y ago
> At minimum, I can't see anything other than Tesla being forced to refund FSD purchases. Hmm, 285,000 [0] sales of FSD * say $8,000 [1] to be conservative = $2,280,000,000 That's more than I expected. [0] https://electrek.co/2022/12/29/tesla-people-bought-full-self-driving-north-america/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/29/tesla-people-bought-full-self... [1] https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/958/tesla-fsd-price-increase-history https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/958/tesla-fsd-p...
- danso 4y ago
  With ~3 million Teslas sold worldwide, 285K FSD was much fewer than I had thought. As someone currently not interested in buying a Tesla, I assumed most of the people in its target market are attracted to the FSD claims (reputationally, consumer-facing self-driving seems to be where Tesla is perceived to be the outright leader) and are able to afford it at its FOMO buy-now pricing.
  - bhauer 4y ago
    FSD take rate has always been quite low, even when it was available for a much lower price than today.
  - neither_color 4y ago
    A lot of Tesla drivers aren't "car people" but they're excited by the tech in the car besides FSD. I have zero interest in FSD and would never have gotten a BMW or Mercedes but still got a Tesla. I was ok with a Nissan before Tesla because premium ICE cars were just cars with added bells and whistles + marketing. If I had to get a new EV that isn't Tesla it would be a Rivian, Ford, or KIA because they all offer something unique that isn't just a retrofitted faux-premium ICE car. I don't care about leather seats or wooden accents or impressing anyone. For regular car folks who aren't into luxury Teslas introduce you to a whole new way of interacting and interfacing with your car such as the app control, sentry mode streaming, at-home charging, driver profiles, full touch UI, etc. Plus it smokes cars that try to block you from merging. Tesla delivered something that all of the MBAs combined from the other legacy car companies couldn't.

londons_explore 4y ago

The thing is... If they offered a full refund of the FSD money to any owner today, I'd take a bet that most owners wouldn't take the offer. Thats because FSD now costs more to buy, so these people still think they've got a good deal. It still adds more value to their car 2nd hand than they paid for it.

creaturemachine 4y ago
Wait, isn't FSD non-transferrable?
- prostanac 4y ago
  It’s non-transferable in the sense that it stays with the car, not the owner. If the owner buys a new car they have to buy the FSD package again. But the car they sell on the second hand market will keep the FSD package, unless they sell it back to Tesla. In that case Tesla usually disables it before putting it back on the market.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    > In that case Tesla usually disables it before putting it back on the market. To do this is a really interesting business move. At first glance, they are throwing away revenue (because a 2nd hand car with FSD presumably sells for more than one without). But they might be able to sell it as an addon or a subscription to the new owner... But the chances of that are probably low to those buying 2nd hand cars.... But also by artificially restricting the numbers of cars available on the market with FSD enabled, those which do have FSD enabled will keep their value better... Which may in turn help with sales of the feature with brand new cars... I bet there is a really big spreadsheet written by an MBA to make this decision...
    - sidibe 4y ago
      They aren't throwing away any revenue. If they sold it as part of the car it would either be discounted roughly like the used vs new value of the car or would make the car look expensive if at full price. Instead people who want FSD can get the car for "cheap" and then pay then pay full price for FSD.

londons_explore 4y ago

I know FSD is non-refundable... But I've got a feeling Tesla has been refunding FSD for really unhappy customers, as long as they're happy to sign an NDA. That's how they've managed to keep this out of the courts for 10 years.

justin66 4y ago
As the potential class of litigants increases in size, and Tesla FSD continues to not be a real thing, the odds of a class-action lawsuit increase. Possibly the reason it hasn't happened yet is, even the lawyers thought eventually Tesla would make the thing they sold actually work.

loeg 4y ago

Somehow TSLA is up 20% in the last five days and 3.5% today. Was this already known and priced in?

sgt 4y ago
[flagged]
- spocklivelong 4y ago
  I generally don't like blanket statements like these. TSLA has a bunch of retail investors and sort of a cult like following with Elon, but kid you not, they made a ton of money and that speaks for something.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    What about those who bought at the top of the market for TSLA?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Not a ton, but although I think Musk is an asshole and his cars are crap, I still bought TSLA when it bottomed out last month.
allemagne 4y ago
If you take the comments in every HN thread about Tesla seriously then it would absolutely have been priced in.

ffggvv 4y ago

feels like we just allow people to get away with fraud for like a decade before doing anything about it.

gitfan86 4y ago

I have been the "victim" in a few cases like this. Usually it ends up with lawyers getting paid 100% and the victim getting $15 or 6 free months of some service. I suspect the same will happen here, the problem here that the prosecution has is the signed purchase agreement is much more legally binding than a tweet. No where in the signed purchase agreement does it say "Statements from our CEO take precedent over this agreement", in fact it says the opposite basically.

vkou 4y ago
A 'Lawyers will take a whole bunch of your money if you behave badly' asshole tax is not the best way to structure society, but its better than not having it. At least it creates a financial disincentive to behave in a fraudulent manner, even if the people you wronged aren't made whole.
dehrmann 4y ago
Could exclude yourself from the class and take Tesla to small claims court. You're capped at $10,000, but you don't need a lawyer.

nelsonic 4y ago

All the folks that don’t own a Tesla but feel that people who pay $20k for “beta” software, please Google for “FSD saved my life” to understand how this seemingly irrational expense makes perfect sense from a personal safety perspective. https://www.google.com/search?q=fsd+saved+my+life https://www.google.com/search?q=fsd+saved+my+life having experienced this first-hand I know that I would gladly pay $20k to avoid a potential fatal accident with my family in the car. Yes, it’s miss-sold and feature-incomplete. But it’s a lot more than “cruise control”. It’s easily the most advanced safety feature in a mass produced vehicle.

clint 4y ago
[flagged]
lostmsu 4y ago
Well, the question is would a normal driver avoid collision? I personally avoided a collision with a truck that was overtaking me (e.g. it was coming from behind) in a shoulder where it did not fit. I swerved to an adjacent empty lane.
- cptskippy 4y ago
  In my opinion, many of the safety systems while flawed, have an advantage over a human in that their attention never falters. Their judgement might be 25-50% that of a human's but their attention is 100%. AEB isn't going to get distracted with the radio, spilled drink, or dropped phone under the seat. I think they're an augmentation that can make drivers better. I also think Tesla's FSD is too lax and allows drivers to be worse.
  - nelsonic 4y ago
    For sure, advanced driver safety systems can become a crutch. I don’t think driving a Tesla has made me a worse driver… but I am very aware of the lack of 360 cameras and collision avoidance when I drive a different car. Back to the OP though, I’m glad that the DOJ keeps Tesla on their toes. Just hope they don’t stifle innovation. I feel much safer in the Tesla than I do in other (even more expensive/luxury) cars.

birdymcbird 4y ago

[flagged]

TechBro8615 4y ago
Our government is corrupt and the Department of "Justice" is a political entity. In fact, it's part of the executive branch and the Attorney General (the head of the Department of Justice) is appointed by the President and can be fired by the President. So the more accurate headline would be, "Joe Biden's Justice Department is investigating Tesla." They will make a big dog-and-pony show about how they're independent from the White House, but at the end of the day, constitutionally, it's just not true. The Justice Department is part of the executive branch and the President is the executive branch. So yes, if Musk had not bought Twitter, there's a good chance that the "Justice" Department would not be investigating Tesla right now. Does that mean they shouldn't be investigating Tesla? Not necessarily - maybe there is a case there. But it's about priorities. And priorities are political.
phailhaus 4y ago
Why are you faking writing in broken English? Going back in your comment history, you wrote perfectly fine just 45 days ago. [1] Do you think this somehow gives you more credibility as a "concerned foreigner"? This is embarrassing behavior, and coming from someone who said they were "Sad to see the current state of what gets posted on HN." [2] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34043099#34044679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34043099#34044679 > And is far less qualified too. > I’ve crossed paths with these “consulting” types twice in my career. I don’t mean to generalize, but these so called “engineers” didn’t understand source control or versioning, didn’t understand basic programming concepts, and lacked any sort of communication skills. > It seemed like you were working with someone who watched a couple YouTube videos (and no more than a couple videos) on some framework, with no former programming, design, or critical thinking skills, and they were now given a job title. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042928#34044167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042928#34044167
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  lol, I think some people just got inordinately freaked out by that demo of stylometric analysis of HN users (which was on the front page about 45 days ago...) This comment [0] from yyt554 in that thread seems to be aging well: > Fun exercise would be to find all accounts that suddenly stopped posting around today and correllate them with new accounts created around today. > All those scared folks who naively think that it's not too late yet. Busted. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756734

HelixEndeavor 4y ago

Just got to say I appreciate the visual pun of the "autopilot" from Airplane.

voytec 4y ago

I really like the use of Otto on post's main picture[1]. For those unaware, Otto was an inflatable autopilot in the 1980 movie "Airplane!"[2] [1] https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/tesla-autopilot-flying-800x449.jpg https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/tesla... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane! (with exclamation mark)

ElCapitanMarkla 4y ago
Surely you can’t be serious.
- voytec 4y ago
  I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

smoovb 4y ago

I spent a fair bit of mental anguish on whether to purchase FSD or not. Thankfully the FSD subscription was out and I reasoned that it could be turned on when valuable enough. The FOMO pricing of FSD seems unnecessary, in retrospect.