4 ms·

You are now talking about the written Japanese language, with all the (real) problems with Kanji, an imported writing system. True enough, but that has little t

by Tor3 4y ago

You are now talking about the written Japanese language, with all the (real) problems with Kanji, an imported writing system. True enough, but that has little to do with the Japanese language. If you look at verbs, and ignore the rubbish written in most textbooks about "conjugations" (which for the most part aren't conjugations), you'll find one of the most logical and consistent systems on the planet. There are only two exceptions. How many exceptions are there in English? EditAdd: What English does have is a lot of redundancy, which can cover up tons of grammatical mistakes and still deliver the meaning. This makes it an excellent language, in many ways, for international communication. If you try to speak someone else's language, and that person knows just a little bit of English, that person can make a lot of mistakes and the meaning is still clear enough, particularly if you're a little practiced in listening to non-native English. Whereas you may make a small little mistake when trying to speak that person's language, and suddenly the sentence totally changes. Heck, even Italian.. use the wrong verb form and instead of saying what you meant "Ah, I'm stupid" you're saying "Ah, you're stupid". But it's hard to mess up English that way so easily.

ickoonite 4y ago
But what is a language without its written form? I mean, fine, if we are going to contrive a comparison where we are only comparing spoken forms, well…English is still going to come out on top, because - exactly as you explained in your edit - its grammar is simple enough that almost anyone can have a go at it. Stick some words together and you’re probably 80% of the way there. That’s not going to be true of any inflected language, even if - as inflected languages go - Japanese is one of the simplest. Anyway, if we are going purely on grammar and ignoring written forms, Chinese - having almost no grammar at all [citation needed] - is surely the apex of simplicity.
- Tor3 4y ago
  I know a person who is fully fluent (I should write "proficient") in Japanese, he has lived in Japan for decades. Built a successful career. But he can't write Japanese. He doesn't read Kanji. Sounds almost incomprehensible to me, because I learn languages by reading (which is where Japanese has given me some trouble). As for English.. "I is to town goes". Mess it up in every possible way and the meaning is still the same, most of the time.. which is arguably very useful for trying to communicate with someone.
  - ickoonite 4y ago
    This is not uncommon for the children of Japanese people living in the West, particularly when they have married non-Japanese. They pick up the spoken language via osmosis but the written language…not so much. It is, as I said, very hard and cannot be mastered without extensive study. Many of these hafu, as the Japanese refer to them, nonetheless enjoy successful careers in Japan, presumably usually in environments that don’t require them to read anything. As to your English example, it…doesn’t really work? There are languages that aren’t dependent on word order for their meaning, but English - shorn of the grammatical signifiers retained by many of its brethren - is not one of them. Latin is famously largely order-independent; another topical example would in fact be Japanese! Its particle-based system for annotating subjects and objects mean their position is unimportant; the only real requirement is that the verb comes at the end.
    - bsder 4y ago
      > Its particle-based system for annotating subjects and objects mean their position is unimportant; the only real requirement is that the verb comes at the end. Particles are one of the most maddening things about Japanese. Order in sentence may be unimportant but it may not be clear which particle you are supposed to choose. Even native speakers regularly screw up particles and particle use has high regional distinctiveness. It also doesn't help that Japanese is infuriatingly aggressive about omitting things that are supposed to be "implied shared knowledge". If you thought English was bad about pronouns/antecedents, you ain't seen nuthin' until you've tried to unpack a Japanese conversation. Sure, if the particles are present, you can unpack things. However, Japanese speakers like to remove complete subordinate clauses because they are "shared context".
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        >Order in sentence may be unimportant but it may not be clear which particle you are supposed to choose. Even native speakers regularly screw up particles and particle use has high regional distinctiveness. Native English speakers use the wrong prepositions all the time.
      - 4y ago
- corroclaro 4y ago
  "Chinese" has just as much grammar as any other language! Please, let us not confuse the fact that Standard Mandarin does not use as much morphological change to signal different tense-aspect-mood changes in verbs but instead uses syntactically ordered particles with no grammar. A grammar covers morphosyntax! A language without its written form is a language. The written form is an artifact of modern society and literacy.
  - ickoonite 4y ago
    Thank you. This was the counter-citation I could not be bothered to produce.

by Tor3 4y ago

ickoonite 4y ago

But what is a language without its written form? I mean, fine, if we are going to contrive a comparison where we are only comparing spoken forms, well…English is still going to come out on top, because - exactly as you explained in your edit - its grammar is simple enough that almost anyone can have a go at it. Stick some words together and you’re probably 80% of the way there. That’s not going to be true of any inflected language, even if - as inflected languages go - Japanese is one of the simplest. Anyway, if we are going purely on grammar and ignoring written forms, Chinese - having almost no grammar at all [citation needed] - is surely the apex of simplicity.

Tor3 4y ago
I know a person who is fully fluent (I should write "proficient") in Japanese, he has lived in Japan for decades. Built a successful career. But he can't write Japanese. He doesn't read Kanji. Sounds almost incomprehensible to me, because I learn languages by reading (which is where Japanese has given me some trouble). As for English.. "I is to town goes". Mess it up in every possible way and the meaning is still the same, most of the time.. which is arguably very useful for trying to communicate with someone.
- ickoonite 4y ago
  This is not uncommon for the children of Japanese people living in the West, particularly when they have married non-Japanese. They pick up the spoken language via osmosis but the written language…not so much. It is, as I said, very hard and cannot be mastered without extensive study. Many of these hafu, as the Japanese refer to them, nonetheless enjoy successful careers in Japan, presumably usually in environments that don’t require them to read anything. As to your English example, it…doesn’t really work? There are languages that aren’t dependent on word order for their meaning, but English - shorn of the grammatical signifiers retained by many of its brethren - is not one of them. Latin is famously largely order-independent; another topical example would in fact be Japanese! Its particle-based system for annotating subjects and objects mean their position is unimportant; the only real requirement is that the verb comes at the end.
  - bsder 4y ago
    > Its particle-based system for annotating subjects and objects mean their position is unimportant; the only real requirement is that the verb comes at the end. Particles are one of the most maddening things about Japanese. Order in sentence may be unimportant but it may not be clear which particle you are supposed to choose. Even native speakers regularly screw up particles and particle use has high regional distinctiveness. It also doesn't help that Japanese is infuriatingly aggressive about omitting things that are supposed to be "implied shared knowledge". If you thought English was bad about pronouns/antecedents, you ain't seen nuthin' until you've tried to unpack a Japanese conversation. Sure, if the particles are present, you can unpack things. However, Japanese speakers like to remove complete subordinate clauses because they are "shared context".
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >Order in sentence may be unimportant but it may not be clear which particle you are supposed to choose. Even native speakers regularly screw up particles and particle use has high regional distinctiveness. Native English speakers use the wrong prepositions all the time.
    - 4y ago
corroclaro 4y ago
"Chinese" has just as much grammar as any other language! Please, let us not confuse the fact that Standard Mandarin does not use as much morphological change to signal different tense-aspect-mood changes in verbs but instead uses syntactically ordered particles with no grammar. A grammar covers morphosyntax! A language without its written form is a language. The written form is an artifact of modern society and literacy.
- ickoonite 4y ago
  Thank you. This was the counter-citation I could not be bothered to produce.