6 ms·

+10 on point 3. Even as a highly technical CTO, it is shocking what outsourced dev agencies will try to do. I've seen dev agencies try to conclude engagements w

+10 on point 3. Even as a highly technical CTO, it is shocking what outsourced dev agencies will try to do. I've seen dev agencies try to conclude engagements with a "successfully working app" but havent delivered any source code, or when source code is delivered it cannot actually be compiled into the successfully working app. As a technical CTO I can smell this a mile away and work it into SoWs, but I wonder how many non-technical co-founders fall into this trap. When you need updates or Phase II, now the rates go up massively. No one else can change it and the outsourced dev agency now has a monopoly. Usually the non-technical CEO/founder will now have to find a new agency, who might pull the same trick or some variation of it. It can be subtle: - You have no code - You have code, but it wont compile - You have code, it will compile, but not into the version you're declared success with - You have code to the client/app, but not to the backend

yolo3000 4y ago
I've consulted in this sort of role for a startup which hired a dev agency. A few months in, we were behind schedule. I've asked them access to their git repo and built some graphs with the commits and LOC changes of every dev we paid for. It became clear that these devs were working on multiple other assignments and were not really dedicated to us. Without these sort of insights, it's hard to judge if they are honest or not.
- TuringNYC 4y ago
  I'll make suggestions to anyone doing this: - For slightly more legal protection, the code should be in YOUR OWN git repo, not the dev agency's repo - If you are giving some upfront $ or milestone payment, you should also contractually now own the code up to that point in time - You should not declare a milestone success (and should not pay) until you can independently compile the app straight from git (front end and backend) (Also, watch out for hard-coded domains where you are secretly pointing to their backend and not to your independently compiled one) - App QA should ONLY be on the version of the app where you compiled/deployed the full stack yourself - You should deploy the app into your own cloud to ensure you actually have all the pieces. Super extra credit: Build Terraform/Ansible/Chef into the SoW and final payment should depend on deployment into your own environment by YOU (not the agency) - You should learn how to build/compile/deploy yourself or hire an independent person (not the devs) who can do this for you
  - tripdout 4y ago
    If you can do all this, you're either already a developer and don't need to outsource it, or you have the ability to learn how.
    - TuringNYC 4y ago
      In general, I agree. There is enormous hidden equity in being a technical co-founder that is unappreciated until non-technical founders are burnt several times. That said, I did present two ideas for those who want to venture into this: - You recognize that the "success" you have in the working app isnt actually a success and plan accordingly - You hire someone independent who keeps the third parties honest Another one: - You cut corners, get a working demo, raise good VC funds and hire a well-compensated technical co-founder or founding engineer who is compensated sufficiently to be happy short term and has sufficient equity to want long term success
    - chromatin 4y ago
      ...or don't have time
  - 300bps 4y ago
    Excellent but dangerous advice. I really hope non-technical people don't read the tips here and think they're now prepared to navigate this process.
    - TuringNYC 4y ago
      100% agree. I've yet to see a startup succeed w/o a technical co-founder. I do angel investments and have never cut a check to a founding team w/o checking for the above checklist. For teams with good founding CTOs, they get it for free if the person is sharp about process. But the whole discussion was what non-technical founders would do, and this is probably the second-best advice I could give. Moreso, to recognize the myriad risks and understand things arent quite as easy as posting a project on Upwork. The first-best advice I could give is to get a technical co-founder.
  - 4y ago
moomoo11 4y ago
It makes me shudder to think people actually hire dev agencies to build their early stage product. Having worked with some in the past in a different life I absolutely despised those people for being both terrible engineers and people (my experience working with big outsourcing companies). Why hire people who don’t care that much to build something the founders definitely care a lot about? Are there any examples of this working out or are these the 90% of startups that fail? Personally I’m very technical and I think the best for me would be a partner who is non technical to help me with marketing and sales (something I have no experience in). Would that sort of duo be the best? I can build whatever mobile web backend AI algo shit. That’s easy for me. For my partner I would prefer they are the same level of competence in their side of things.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  One of the reasons that I am working on the project that I'm on now (for the last couple of years), is because a friend of mine had set up a 501(c)(3), and was looking to develop an app, out of his own pockets, and through solicited donations. The main problem was, he didn't really know what he wanted (non-technical). He asked me to sit in on a couple of his enquiries to developer agencies. It was a shitshow. I had respect for the one chap that basically said "Get back to me, when you know exactly what you want." I had absolutely zero respect for the agency that said they would deliver a full MVP, in three months. After that, I just said "Screw this. You'll just get ripped off. I was looking for something to work on, so it might as well be this." It's been a long process, but we are now in the home stretch. I don't even want to think about how badly he would have been screwed, and I'm quite un-thrilled with the ethics of the folks that claimed they could deliver the app in three months (fairly large-scale backend, and high-quality frontends for mobile clients).
  - moomoo11 4y ago
    Nice good luck to u and ur friend
    - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
e40 4y ago
> I've seen dev agencies try to conclude engagements with a "successfully working app" but havent delivered any source code, or when source code is delivered it cannot actually be compiled into the successfully working app. The recliner I bought 2 years ago has an iOS app that basically works, but has many flaws. It's clear the company does not have the source code. The developer, in the app store, has a name with Chinese characters and the company is based in the US. It was right after the pandemic, that I bought it, and complained to their support. I was still in the window of returning it for a full refund, so they told me "we'll get right on that" and fix the problem I reports. Almost 2 years later and not a single update to the app. EDIT: company is Human Touch, chair is the Gravis ZG. EDIT2: sorry, it was the Copyright message that was in Chinese. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/gravis-chair/id1435036207 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/gravis-chair/id1435036207 Last update Apr 2020.
- thefounder 4y ago
  I had one of their recliners. The leather got pretty bad. Now I have the Altwork station though I no longer work 27/7.

yolo3000 4y ago

I've consulted in this sort of role for a startup which hired a dev agency. A few months in, we were behind schedule. I've asked them access to their git repo and built some graphs with the commits and LOC changes of every dev we paid for. It became clear that these devs were working on multiple other assignments and were not really dedicated to us. Without these sort of insights, it's hard to judge if they are honest or not.

TuringNYC 4y ago
I'll make suggestions to anyone doing this: - For slightly more legal protection, the code should be in YOUR OWN git repo, not the dev agency's repo - If you are giving some upfront $ or milestone payment, you should also contractually now own the code up to that point in time - You should not declare a milestone success (and should not pay) until you can independently compile the app straight from git (front end and backend) (Also, watch out for hard-coded domains where you are secretly pointing to their backend and not to your independently compiled one) - App QA should ONLY be on the version of the app where you compiled/deployed the full stack yourself - You should deploy the app into your own cloud to ensure you actually have all the pieces. Super extra credit: Build Terraform/Ansible/Chef into the SoW and final payment should depend on deployment into your own environment by YOU (not the agency) - You should learn how to build/compile/deploy yourself or hire an independent person (not the devs) who can do this for you
- tripdout 4y ago
  If you can do all this, you're either already a developer and don't need to outsource it, or you have the ability to learn how.
  - TuringNYC 4y ago
    In general, I agree. There is enormous hidden equity in being a technical co-founder that is unappreciated until non-technical founders are burnt several times. That said, I did present two ideas for those who want to venture into this: - You recognize that the "success" you have in the working app isnt actually a success and plan accordingly - You hire someone independent who keeps the third parties honest Another one: - You cut corners, get a working demo, raise good VC funds and hire a well-compensated technical co-founder or founding engineer who is compensated sufficiently to be happy short term and has sufficient equity to want long term success
  - chromatin 4y ago
    ...or don't have time
- 300bps 4y ago
  Excellent but dangerous advice. I really hope non-technical people don't read the tips here and think they're now prepared to navigate this process.
  - TuringNYC 4y ago
    100% agree. I've yet to see a startup succeed w/o a technical co-founder. I do angel investments and have never cut a check to a founding team w/o checking for the above checklist. For teams with good founding CTOs, they get it for free if the person is sharp about process. But the whole discussion was what non-technical founders would do, and this is probably the second-best advice I could give. Moreso, to recognize the myriad risks and understand things arent quite as easy as posting a project on Upwork. The first-best advice I could give is to get a technical co-founder.
- 4y ago

moomoo11 4y ago

It makes me shudder to think people actually hire dev agencies to build their early stage product. Having worked with some in the past in a different life I absolutely despised those people for being both terrible engineers and people (my experience working with big outsourcing companies). Why hire people who don’t care that much to build something the founders definitely care a lot about? Are there any examples of this working out or are these the 90% of startups that fail? Personally I’m very technical and I think the best for me would be a partner who is non technical to help me with marketing and sales (something I have no experience in). Would that sort of duo be the best? I can build whatever mobile web backend AI algo shit. That’s easy for me. For my partner I would prefer they are the same level of competence in their side of things.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
One of the reasons that I am working on the project that I'm on now (for the last couple of years), is because a friend of mine had set up a 501(c)(3), and was looking to develop an app, out of his own pockets, and through solicited donations. The main problem was, he didn't really know what he wanted (non-technical). He asked me to sit in on a couple of his enquiries to developer agencies. It was a shitshow. I had respect for the one chap that basically said "Get back to me, when you know exactly what you want." I had absolutely zero respect for the agency that said they would deliver a full MVP, in three months. After that, I just said "Screw this. You'll just get ripped off. I was looking for something to work on, so it might as well be this." It's been a long process, but we are now in the home stretch. I don't even want to think about how badly he would have been screwed, and I'm quite un-thrilled with the ethics of the folks that claimed they could deliver the app in three months (fairly large-scale backend, and high-quality frontends for mobile clients).
- moomoo11 4y ago
  Nice good luck to u and ur friend
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

e40 4y ago

> I've seen dev agencies try to conclude engagements with a "successfully working app" but havent delivered any source code, or when source code is delivered it cannot actually be compiled into the successfully working app. The recliner I bought 2 years ago has an iOS app that basically works, but has many flaws. It's clear the company does not have the source code. The developer, in the app store, has a name with Chinese characters and the company is based in the US. It was right after the pandemic, that I bought it, and complained to their support. I was still in the window of returning it for a full refund, so they told me "we'll get right on that" and fix the problem I reports. Almost 2 years later and not a single update to the app. EDIT: company is Human Touch, chair is the Gravis ZG. EDIT2: sorry, it was the Copyright message that was in Chinese. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/gravis-chair/id1435036207 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/gravis-chair/id1435036207 Last update Apr 2020.

thefounder 4y ago
I had one of their recliners. The leather got pretty bad. Now I have the Altwork station though I no longer work 27/7.