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I knew a woman in DC who was late for work because a guy tried to get on the bus, was denied entry because he couldnt/wouldn't pay, and so he pulled out a gun a

I knew a woman in DC who was late for work because a guy tried to get on the bus, was denied entry because he couldnt/wouldn't pay, and so he pulled out a gun and shot the bus driver dead. She wasn't even phased. This was about 15 years ago. Proof of fare is better than having transit employees be the enforcers. Free is even better, theoretically. But be wary, transit in DC may turn into moving homeless encampment as there is no real way to tell someone they can't stay on the bus all day

dools 4y ago
Maybe we should think about providing houses for homeless people instead of trying to kick them off public transport then ...
- midoridensha 4y ago
  They tried that in places like New York, and it hasn't worked out well. The problems are much deeper than people just not having a place to live, for many of them.
  - dools 4y ago
    Then perhaps they need a house and a job, and mental and physical healthcare. And perhaps that needs to be provided for a few decades to reverse the generational trauma caused by involuntary unemployment and poverty.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      The people causing the problems people complain about can't hold down a job, and will trash any house they're given. What they need is to be put in a mental institution, but that became unfashionable during the 80s for some reason. With proper help, some of them probably could be returned to society. And of course there are many who are just victims of circumstance; those really should be helped with housing and jobs, though it's arguable that being homeless for too long has caused some of these people to turn into those needing acute mental care, so there is that.
      - dools 4y ago
        Sure thing. My brother needed to go to a psychiatric hospital, and of course it's very difficult to be involuntarily committed. We got him there in the end, mostly due to the enduring support of his partner. My lesson from that was that, with the right support, and a bit of patience, people can get the help they need. Takes a bit of time though. I think in the vast majority of cases if we offer a job to anyone who wants one at a socially inclusive minimum wage doing work in their community, in addition to stable housing, within a few years they'll be doing better, and within a generation the negative impacts of involuntary unemployment and homelessness will be a relic of the past.
rektide 4y ago
With apologies & respect, this is not anything near a common occurrence in DC. http://google.com/search?q=dc+bus+driver+death http://google.com/search?q=dc+bus+driver+death There are very very few incidents of bus drivers dying in DC. I would highly recommend not taking this fear-instilling anecdote as a real sign of what is. I'm not saying to disregard this account, give it the benefit of a doubt, but it also is very new, and has had a pretty contentious first steps. I too am pretty contentious here & there my years, and I'm not at all saying to disregard one another. But this kind of high-brand FUD rather frustates me, & I feel like should set us on guard: it goes deeply to an emotional vulnerability we all have, quickly, rapidly. I genuinely want to believe this event here is not a complete fabrication. But the only bus driver gun-death I can find is linked to the 2002 DC sniper attacks. That this new account demonstrates a particular bias, from what I have seen, adds to my hestiancy to take this as real. Again, I very very much do not want to say to disregard, I do not want to attack the person, but this claim seems fundamentally suspect, & the history seems at least a bit murky, and I'd say this comment deserves caution & question, rather than acceptance. We have some fairly notorious bus lines in DC. But like, overall, the actual scary shit nearly never ever happens. Oh look, some loud people are drinking on the 7X's or the X2 again. Generally it's not really a real problem & we kind of ignore it & eventually they get off, or, if they start causing a scene, the bus driver asks them to leave, and after a couple dozen seconds they get the point that this is not really winnable & wander off. I've seen some people get mad at each other, but someone gets off & the drama dissipates. The notoriety is more about characters & ridiculousness, thank heavens, and rarely about real actual in fact for real problems. Those, from what I have heard in my many years in DC, have been pretty few.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  It's FAR more common that in other countries where people aren't allowed to walk around with guns.
  - rektide 4y ago
    I'm saying there are thusfar zero cases in DC that we have any real evidence of, so this "FAR more common" is trying to compare a 0% vs 0% empirical chance. I'm not opposed to gun control & the general idea here, not at all. And I'm more than willing to accept evidence that guns really are a bit of a menace & problem with some real & regular reocurrence on this transit system I use. Certainly there are problems beyond people getting killed, but so far my attempts to dig up real data to show meaningful problems has surfaced nothing (and no one else has pointed to verifiable problems either). So far it feels- to me- that this is barking up the wrong tree. That there isn't strong data portraying a real transit-gun problem; there isn't evidence, and there isn't actually a problem here, and that this is an imposition of concerns that have an incredibly miniscule factor in the reality of this system. I really want to support the questioning of guns, which I broadly disagree with, but right now I really don't see the data nor hear the anecdotes for this being a real/regular concern. These emotions being projected read to me like anti-urban heresay, which I want to believe/take as real, but am not finding evidence of. Also note so far our metro/subway system has a gun ban. Penalties for fucking with DC metro or DC busses in any moderately significant way is pretty severe, and the city will spend pretty significant effort to track shit down if stuff does go bad, it feels like, from the every couple years drama that makes our local digital rags. Worth noting of course that the bans & commensurate penalties/enforcement are under semi-regular legal threat, like a recent challenge here (https://dcist.com/story/23/01/04/judge-tosses-out-lawsuit-seeking-to-overturn-gun-ban-on-metro-in-dc/ https://dcist.com/story/23/01/04/judge-tosses-out-lawsuit-se...). It feels like it's all gotten especially wild since the latest Supreme Court took the activist position of overturning New York's requirement to have a license to conceal carry. But so far, a number of rulings have kept various DC laws & protections intact.

dools 4y ago

Maybe we should think about providing houses for homeless people instead of trying to kick them off public transport then ...

midoridensha 4y ago
They tried that in places like New York, and it hasn't worked out well. The problems are much deeper than people just not having a place to live, for many of them.
- dools 4y ago
  Then perhaps they need a house and a job, and mental and physical healthcare. And perhaps that needs to be provided for a few decades to reverse the generational trauma caused by involuntary unemployment and poverty.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    The people causing the problems people complain about can't hold down a job, and will trash any house they're given. What they need is to be put in a mental institution, but that became unfashionable during the 80s for some reason. With proper help, some of them probably could be returned to society. And of course there are many who are just victims of circumstance; those really should be helped with housing and jobs, though it's arguable that being homeless for too long has caused some of these people to turn into those needing acute mental care, so there is that.
    - dools 4y ago
      Sure thing. My brother needed to go to a psychiatric hospital, and of course it's very difficult to be involuntarily committed. We got him there in the end, mostly due to the enduring support of his partner. My lesson from that was that, with the right support, and a bit of patience, people can get the help they need. Takes a bit of time though. I think in the vast majority of cases if we offer a job to anyone who wants one at a socially inclusive minimum wage doing work in their community, in addition to stable housing, within a few years they'll be doing better, and within a generation the negative impacts of involuntary unemployment and homelessness will be a relic of the past.

rektide 4y ago

With apologies & respect, this is not anything near a common occurrence in DC. http://google.com/search?q=dc+bus+driver+death http://google.com/search?q=dc+bus+driver+death There are very very few incidents of bus drivers dying in DC. I would highly recommend not taking this fear-instilling anecdote as a real sign of what is. I'm not saying to disregard this account, give it the benefit of a doubt, but it also is very new, and has had a pretty contentious first steps. I too am pretty contentious here & there my years, and I'm not at all saying to disregard one another. But this kind of high-brand FUD rather frustates me, & I feel like should set us on guard: it goes deeply to an emotional vulnerability we all have, quickly, rapidly. I genuinely want to believe this event here is not a complete fabrication. But the only bus driver gun-death I can find is linked to the 2002 DC sniper attacks. That this new account demonstrates a particular bias, from what I have seen, adds to my hestiancy to take this as real. Again, I very very much do not want to say to disregard, I do not want to attack the person, but this claim seems fundamentally suspect, & the history seems at least a bit murky, and I'd say this comment deserves caution & question, rather than acceptance. We have some fairly notorious bus lines in DC. But like, overall, the actual scary shit nearly never ever happens. Oh look, some loud people are drinking on the 7X's or the X2 again. Generally it's not really a real problem & we kind of ignore it & eventually they get off, or, if they start causing a scene, the bus driver asks them to leave, and after a couple dozen seconds they get the point that this is not really winnable & wander off. I've seen some people get mad at each other, but someone gets off & the drama dissipates. The notoriety is more about characters & ridiculousness, thank heavens, and rarely about real actual in fact for real problems. Those, from what I have heard in my many years in DC, have been pretty few.

midoridensha 4y ago
It's FAR more common that in other countries where people aren't allowed to walk around with guns.
- rektide 4y ago
  I'm saying there are thusfar zero cases in DC that we have any real evidence of, so this "FAR more common" is trying to compare a 0% vs 0% empirical chance. I'm not opposed to gun control & the general idea here, not at all. And I'm more than willing to accept evidence that guns really are a bit of a menace & problem with some real & regular reocurrence on this transit system I use. Certainly there are problems beyond people getting killed, but so far my attempts to dig up real data to show meaningful problems has surfaced nothing (and no one else has pointed to verifiable problems either). So far it feels- to me- that this is barking up the wrong tree. That there isn't strong data portraying a real transit-gun problem; there isn't evidence, and there isn't actually a problem here, and that this is an imposition of concerns that have an incredibly miniscule factor in the reality of this system. I really want to support the questioning of guns, which I broadly disagree with, but right now I really don't see the data nor hear the anecdotes for this being a real/regular concern. These emotions being projected read to me like anti-urban heresay, which I want to believe/take as real, but am not finding evidence of. Also note so far our metro/subway system has a gun ban. Penalties for fucking with DC metro or DC busses in any moderately significant way is pretty severe, and the city will spend pretty significant effort to track shit down if stuff does go bad, it feels like, from the every couple years drama that makes our local digital rags. Worth noting of course that the bans & commensurate penalties/enforcement are under semi-regular legal threat, like a recent challenge here (https://dcist.com/story/23/01/04/judge-tosses-out-lawsuit-seeking-to-overturn-gun-ban-on-metro-in-dc/ https://dcist.com/story/23/01/04/judge-tosses-out-lawsuit-se...). It feels like it's all gotten especially wild since the latest Supreme Court took the activist position of overturning New York's requirement to have a license to conceal carry. But so far, a number of rulings have kept various DC laws & protections intact.