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This is in conflict with public transit in many European cities, which is (1) free or nominally priced, (2) has favorable headways compared to nearly every US c

This is in conflict with public transit in many European cities, which is (1) free or nominally priced, (2) has favorable headways compared to nearly every US city, and (3) is more sustainably funded than public transit in the US. I frankly wouldn’t mind paying more for public transit, but making it the crux feels roughly analogous to corporate ”greenwashing”: push the responsibility onto individuals and we can conveniently ignore the structural changes needed to make public transit systems grow and thrive.

raldi 4y ago
First make it good, then make it free.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  There’s no intrinsic ordering here: making a public transit system better requires justification through ridership numbers, and making your system free is a fantastic way to improve those numbers.
  - raldi 4y ago
    Why do you believe that? American transit experts are saying things like, “I’ve heard people describe the free fare movement as being a movement for free, terrible service, and that’s how the trade-off ends up working if you expect this to happen inside the budget of an impoverished American transit agency" and "if a transit agency had to choose between devoting funds to reducing fares or to maintaining or improving service, most riders would prefer the latter. It also suggests that the notion of making transit “free”—though politically appealing —would provide less utility to the public than if the equivalence in foregone revenue were spent improving service and continuing to charge a fare." Sources: https://slate.com/business/2021/06/free-transit-is-not-a-great-idea.html https://slate.com/business/2021/06/free-transit-is-not-a-gre... https://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TC_WhosOnBoard_Final_digital-1-1.pdf https://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TC_Whos...
    - bombcar 4y ago
      By definition existing riders are those already willing to pay the fee, so of course they’re going to want better service via no fee.
ratchetbob 4y ago
which cities have free or nominally priced transit? Certainly not Paris, anywhere in Germany, Switzerland, Amsterdam, etc.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The Paris metro is €1.90 (from a quick online search), which I’d argue is pretty close to nominal: it’s substantially below even the cheap public transit systems in the US like the NYC subway.
  - ratchetbob 4y ago
    NYC subway is $2.75 / trip. Before the euro lost value those would be equivalent rates.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  Single fares in Switzerland are indeed extortionate, but there are a wide variety of passes that cut costs considerably, including one that gives you free travel throughout the entire country. https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga.html https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga....
  - incone123 4y ago
    There's a pass that gives actual free travel, or just unlimited travel for a fixed price?
    - rippercushions 4y ago
      You pay CHF 3860 upfront, and you get a magical card that lets you ride (almost) every train and bus in Switzerland as much as you like for a year.
      - loeg 4y ago
        That's about $11.50/day, including weekends, or $16/biz day. For a commuter, that's $8 each way. That is a pretty substantial fare.
Semaphor 4y ago
Which European cities are those? I heard one or two with free transit, which ones are "nominally priced"? In Germany, it’s decently expensive.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Tallinn is the most famous free one, I think. In terms of nominal pricing, I was thinking of Grenoble, where it was around $2 USD equivalent when I was there there. Edit: Another example is Prague, which is around $1.
  - loeg 4y ago
    ~$2 fares are common in the US and I would not describe that as "free or nominally priced."
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Okay, but do an in-kind comparison: can I take a public tram for ~$2 in similarly sized US cities? I can’t think of many; the first that comes to mind is Portland’s MAX, which is $2.50, has a smaller network with longer headways, and services a much larger metropolitan area as justification for its existence.
      - Rebelgecko 4y ago
        Not sure how the headway and network size compare, but Los Angeles light rail is $1.75. Good deal when you compare the cost of living to most of Europe!
      - loeg 4y ago
        I agree that some European cities subsidize transit somewhat more than most similar-sized US metros.
  - alibarber 4y ago
    Tallinn is not (all?) free. The tram is at least €1.50 for 90 mins transfer. Helsinki is €3.10 I live in Helsinki and spent a lot of time last year in Tallinn - the ‘transit is free in Europe’ thing is very much an exception rather than a rule.
throw_m239339 4y ago
> This is in conflict with public transit in many European cities, which is (1) free or nominally priced, (2) has favorable headways compared to nearly every US city, and (3) is more sustainably funded than public transit in the US. In which European capital cities bus fairs are free?
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Luxembourg, I think? Haven't heard of any others, though.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I didn’t know Luxembourg! Tallinn was the one I was thinking of.

raldi 4y ago

First make it good, then make it free.

woodruffw 4y ago
There’s no intrinsic ordering here: making a public transit system better requires justification through ridership numbers, and making your system free is a fantastic way to improve those numbers.
- raldi 4y ago
  Why do you believe that? American transit experts are saying things like, “I’ve heard people describe the free fare movement as being a movement for free, terrible service, and that’s how the trade-off ends up working if you expect this to happen inside the budget of an impoverished American transit agency" and "if a transit agency had to choose between devoting funds to reducing fares or to maintaining or improving service, most riders would prefer the latter. It also suggests that the notion of making transit “free”—though politically appealing —would provide less utility to the public than if the equivalence in foregone revenue were spent improving service and continuing to charge a fare." Sources: https://slate.com/business/2021/06/free-transit-is-not-a-great-idea.html https://slate.com/business/2021/06/free-transit-is-not-a-gre... https://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TC_WhosOnBoard_Final_digital-1-1.pdf https://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TC_Whos...
  - bombcar 4y ago
    By definition existing riders are those already willing to pay the fee, so of course they’re going to want better service via no fee.

ratchetbob 4y ago

which cities have free or nominally priced transit? Certainly not Paris, anywhere in Germany, Switzerland, Amsterdam, etc.

woodruffw 4y ago
The Paris metro is €1.90 (from a quick online search), which I’d argue is pretty close to nominal: it’s substantially below even the cheap public transit systems in the US like the NYC subway.
- ratchetbob 4y ago
  NYC subway is $2.75 / trip. Before the euro lost value those would be equivalent rates.
rippercushions 4y ago
Single fares in Switzerland are indeed extortionate, but there are a wide variety of passes that cut costs considerably, including one that gives you free travel throughout the entire country. https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga.html https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga....
- incone123 4y ago
  There's a pass that gives actual free travel, or just unlimited travel for a fixed price?
  - rippercushions 4y ago
    You pay CHF 3860 upfront, and you get a magical card that lets you ride (almost) every train and bus in Switzerland as much as you like for a year.
    - loeg 4y ago
      That's about $11.50/day, including weekends, or $16/biz day. For a commuter, that's $8 each way. That is a pretty substantial fare.

Semaphor 4y ago

Which European cities are those? I heard one or two with free transit, which ones are "nominally priced"? In Germany, it’s decently expensive.

woodruffw 4y ago
Tallinn is the most famous free one, I think. In terms of nominal pricing, I was thinking of Grenoble, where it was around $2 USD equivalent when I was there there. Edit: Another example is Prague, which is around $1.
- loeg 4y ago
  ~$2 fares are common in the US and I would not describe that as "free or nominally priced."
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Okay, but do an in-kind comparison: can I take a public tram for ~$2 in similarly sized US cities? I can’t think of many; the first that comes to mind is Portland’s MAX, which is $2.50, has a smaller network with longer headways, and services a much larger metropolitan area as justification for its existence.
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      Not sure how the headway and network size compare, but Los Angeles light rail is $1.75. Good deal when you compare the cost of living to most of Europe!
    - loeg 4y ago
      I agree that some European cities subsidize transit somewhat more than most similar-sized US metros.
- alibarber 4y ago
  Tallinn is not (all?) free. The tram is at least €1.50 for 90 mins transfer. Helsinki is €3.10 I live in Helsinki and spent a lot of time last year in Tallinn - the ‘transit is free in Europe’ thing is very much an exception rather than a rule.

throw_m239339 4y ago

> This is in conflict with public transit in many European cities, which is (1) free or nominally priced, (2) has favorable headways compared to nearly every US city, and (3) is more sustainably funded than public transit in the US. In which European capital cities bus fairs are free?

TulliusCicero 4y ago
Luxembourg, I think? Haven't heard of any others, though.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I didn’t know Luxembourg! Tallinn was the one I was thinking of.