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I'm sorry this behavior gives you nightmares. I don't find this line of argument compelling though. For example, your Bundy argument appears to imply that it

I'm sorry this behavior gives you nightmares. I don't find this line of argument compelling though. For example, your Bundy argument appears to imply that it is immoral to have any sort of difficulty in a public place that might cause a woman to come offer help to you. This seems like a fairly absurd, possibly ableist moral guideline? The reductio ad absurdum of this reasoning is: "Abusers breathe oxygen, if you breathe oxygen that makes you like an abuser, therefore it's predatory to breathe oxygen." Basically by saying "X is a behavior that abusers do", decent people will want to avoid beahvior X in order to not be thought of as abusers. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: no decent person will do behavior X. This works regardless of whether behavior X is inherently problematic. I'm really sorry that you had such shitty experiences, but I think your ideas about reworking society to give you less anxiety are misguided and counterproductive (even for the goal of reducing your anxiety). If you're super risk-averse, you can implement some personal guidelines like "never be alone in a room with another person" or whatever. I don't think your own risk-aversion is a good justification for preventing other consenting adults from being alone in a room with each other though.

heavyset_go 4y ago
The issue isn't that it's "immoral" to have any sort of difficulty in a public place that women might offer help for, it's the predatory intent and behavior, and the fabrication/manipulation of situations in order to manipulate others. That predatory behavior and manipulation also betrays a good faith interpretation of consent. Consent isn't realized through trickery and technicalities. If someone believes that predatory behavior and manipulation are okay, especially when it comes to dating, sex or consent, that is definitely someone that a SA/CSA survivor should be wary of, because those are the beliefs and attitudes that perpetuate such abuse.
- ShredKazoo 4y ago
  What's your definition of "predatory intent"? If a woman signs up for eHarmony with the intent to find a husband, is that "predatory intent"? Suppose a man does as described in OP and if anyone asks him what he's doing, he responds honestly. Is that fabrication/manipulation? Suppose a woman wears makeup in order to appear more youthful and beautiful than she really is. Is that fabrication/manipulation? If she successfully seduces a man into sleeping with her as a result of her makeup, is that a consent violation?
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Ted Bundy wasn't signing up for a dating service to find a spouse, he was fabricating situations and preying on women's sympathy to deceive and kidnap them. That's predatory intent. > Suppose a man does as described in OP and if anyone asks him what he's doing, he responds honestly. Is that fabrication/manipulation? Suppose one of Bundy's potential victims asks him what he's doing, and he goes, "Well, I'm just pretending to have trouble in order to get close enough to kidnap you!" Is that still predatory and does it affect his intent? > Suppose a woman wears makeup in order to appear more youthful and beautiful than she really is. Is that fabrication/manipulation? If she successfully seduces a man into sleeping with her as a result of her makeup, is that a consent violation? Surely you can see the difference between taking care of yourself and preying upon people. There's nothing deceptive about looking good. If they're out there catfishing people to sleep with them, however, that is predatory, but that is not what you're describing.
    - ShredKazoo 4y ago
      >Ted Bundy wasn't signing up for a dating service to find a spouse, he was fabricating situations and preying on women's sympathy to deceive and kidnap them. That's predatory intent. I agree if you want to kidnap someone, you're a predator. >Suppose one of Bundy's potential victims asks him what he's doing, and he goes, "Well, I'm just pretending to have trouble in order to get close enough to kidnap you!" Is that still predatory and does it affect his intent? The key thing that makes Bundy a predator is wanting to kidnap someone. If someone did the exact same thing with the intention of meeting their future spouse instead of forcibly kidnapping someone, they're not a predator, barring extenuating circumstances. For example, the other day in the store a woman dropped something near me, while I was squatting on the floor. I picked it up and gave it to her. Afterwards, I realized that she'd been looking at me prior to dropping the object, and it occurred to me that maybe she was trying to get me to talk to her (out of all the places in the store, she somehow dropped her thing right next to me, and also waited for me to pick it up instead of bending over herself). I don't have any particular reason to believe she's a predator based on that interaction, even if she dropped the item intentionally. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. It seems like you're using a wild analogy with Ted Bundy to demonize harmless flirtation of the sort you'd find in a romantic comedy. >There's nothing deceptive about looking good. Let's change the scenario -- suppose she deliberately makes her makeup look natural, and when someone asks if she's wearing makeup, she lies and says no. What do you call that? Because it seems about as bad to me as a man who does as described in the OP, and when asked why he's in the class, says something like "yeah I like helping people, I don't know!" In both cases you're doing something to attract people you're interested in and telling a white lie related to it.

heavyset_go 4y ago

The issue isn't that it's "immoral" to have any sort of difficulty in a public place that women might offer help for, it's the predatory intent and behavior, and the fabrication/manipulation of situations in order to manipulate others. That predatory behavior and manipulation also betrays a good faith interpretation of consent. Consent isn't realized through trickery and technicalities. If someone believes that predatory behavior and manipulation are okay, especially when it comes to dating, sex or consent, that is definitely someone that a SA/CSA survivor should be wary of, because those are the beliefs and attitudes that perpetuate such abuse.

ShredKazoo 4y ago
What's your definition of "predatory intent"? If a woman signs up for eHarmony with the intent to find a husband, is that "predatory intent"? Suppose a man does as described in OP and if anyone asks him what he's doing, he responds honestly. Is that fabrication/manipulation? Suppose a woman wears makeup in order to appear more youthful and beautiful than she really is. Is that fabrication/manipulation? If she successfully seduces a man into sleeping with her as a result of her makeup, is that a consent violation?
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Ted Bundy wasn't signing up for a dating service to find a spouse, he was fabricating situations and preying on women's sympathy to deceive and kidnap them. That's predatory intent. > Suppose a man does as described in OP and if anyone asks him what he's doing, he responds honestly. Is that fabrication/manipulation? Suppose one of Bundy's potential victims asks him what he's doing, and he goes, "Well, I'm just pretending to have trouble in order to get close enough to kidnap you!" Is that still predatory and does it affect his intent? > Suppose a woman wears makeup in order to appear more youthful and beautiful than she really is. Is that fabrication/manipulation? If she successfully seduces a man into sleeping with her as a result of her makeup, is that a consent violation? Surely you can see the difference between taking care of yourself and preying upon people. There's nothing deceptive about looking good. If they're out there catfishing people to sleep with them, however, that is predatory, but that is not what you're describing.
  - ShredKazoo 4y ago
    >Ted Bundy wasn't signing up for a dating service to find a spouse, he was fabricating situations and preying on women's sympathy to deceive and kidnap them. That's predatory intent. I agree if you want to kidnap someone, you're a predator. >Suppose one of Bundy's potential victims asks him what he's doing, and he goes, "Well, I'm just pretending to have trouble in order to get close enough to kidnap you!" Is that still predatory and does it affect his intent? The key thing that makes Bundy a predator is wanting to kidnap someone. If someone did the exact same thing with the intention of meeting their future spouse instead of forcibly kidnapping someone, they're not a predator, barring extenuating circumstances. For example, the other day in the store a woman dropped something near me, while I was squatting on the floor. I picked it up and gave it to her. Afterwards, I realized that she'd been looking at me prior to dropping the object, and it occurred to me that maybe she was trying to get me to talk to her (out of all the places in the store, she somehow dropped her thing right next to me, and also waited for me to pick it up instead of bending over herself). I don't have any particular reason to believe she's a predator based on that interaction, even if she dropped the item intentionally. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. It seems like you're using a wild analogy with Ted Bundy to demonize harmless flirtation of the sort you'd find in a romantic comedy. >There's nothing deceptive about looking good. Let's change the scenario -- suppose she deliberately makes her makeup look natural, and when someone asks if she's wearing makeup, she lies and says no. What do you call that? Because it seems about as bad to me as a man who does as described in the OP, and when asked why he's in the class, says something like "yeah I like helping people, I don't know!" In both cases you're doing something to attract people you're interested in and telling a white lie related to it.