6 ms·

> It is weird when people take a class specifically because of that reason though. Really? I know people who specifically chose their entire major based on the

by troupe 4y ago

> It is weird when people take a class specifically because of that reason though. Really? I know people who specifically chose their entire major based on the ratio of women in that major.

wilsonnb3 4y ago
It is probably not weird in the hormone-addled mind of a teenager but yeah, I find it to be some combination of weird, pervy, sleazy, misogynistic, etc.
- lazide 4y ago
  Or, you know, not unusual for humans with healthy hormone levels. It’s like the attack of the puritans here.
- fastball 4y ago
  Wanting to spend more time with women is misogynistic? I don't want to whip out the dictionary definition of that word, but in what way does choosing classes to spend more time with women (because your existing classes are full of guys) mean you hate women?
  - wilsonnb3 4y ago
    If you are someone who genuinely enjoys the company of women over the company of men, then I agree that it is not misogynistic. But that isn't really what we are talking about. The average hypothetical man choosing his class or major because of how many women are in it isn't looking to make female friends. He just wants to surround himself with a higher percentage of people that he is sexually attracted to.
    - notinfuriated 4y ago
      Are you saying that being sexually attracted to women is misogynistic? I assume you're not saying that, but you're not explaining why this behavior is misogynistic. At best, you might mean that if a man is sexually attracted to women, and he seeks out the company of women, then he must believe that women are sexual objects made strictly for his personal pleasure. Is that what you're trying to say?
      - wilsonnb3 4y ago
        > you might mean that if a man is sexually attracted to women, and he seeks out the company of women, then he must believe that women are sexual objects made strictly for his personal pleasure. I am sort of saying this but not as tautologically as you are stating it. I am saying that generally, when someone chooses a class or major because of the high percentage of people taking it that said person is sexually attracted to, said person is probably objectifying those people. Said person is probably not interested in friendships with those people or with the personality of those people. I am not saying that any situation in which a person seeks out another person that they are sexually attracted to is misogynistic or requires objectification.
        Bancakes 4y ago
        Sex is not objectification, it’s a natural need. It’s an entirely different point to argue that a friendship between a man and a woman with zero (0) sexual interest, does not exist. What is this modern style thinking that sex is bad? Sex is a tool for love making.
        Tozen 4y ago
        > I am saying that generally, when someone chooses a class or major because of the high percentage of people taking it that said person is sexually attracted to, said person is probably objectifying those people. Said person is probably not interested in friendships with those people or with the personality of those people. It comes across that you are demonizing natural and biological sexual attraction between the opposite sexes, and categorizing it as objectification and bad. Then there is oddly separating the possibility of friendship or having an interest in people beyond sexual attraction, as if this is not possible. To include, based on previous statements, these are probably misandric beliefs directed towards men in general. There is nothing wrong with being physically attracted to the opposite sex, and it's also possible to form friendships or be attracted to other aspects about them. A man can think of a woman as both physically attractive and intelligent. A woman can look at a man as both attractive and possessing a nice personality. And whatever are the attributes that attract one person to another, that is their right. It is not for a 3rd party to decide what two people find attractive between them. If they want only the purest of friendships or only completely sexual relationships, that is their prerogative. Of which, we usually can't truly know, because both men and women can lie. Only when the line is crossed towards actual violations of written legal policies, violations of human rights, or criminal behavior that it should become the concern of 3rd parties.
    - Tozen 4y ago
      > He just wants to surround himself with a higher percentage of people that he is sexually attracted to. This statement comes across as a bit misandric, but in way in which it appears not to be realized. It's demonizing males who are attracted to the opposite sex, which is natural biology, and as if men shouldn't be allowed to freely associate with other adults of the opposite sex. On the flip, I don't see women being demonized for wanting to be around a higher percentage of people she is sexually attracted to. Be it males or other females. To include if she chose a class or major with higher prospects for meeting the opposite sex, dating, or for greater marriage prospects. > The average hypothetical man choosing his class or major because of how many women are in it isn't looking to make female friends. Again, the casual male demonization and vilification, is both sad and amazing. Few people would come to the conclusion that a woman choosing her class or major based on greater opportunities with the opposite or same sex, would find that to be nefarious by default. > If you are someone who genuinely enjoys the company of women over the company of men, then I agree that it is not misogynistic. The later statements contradict this statement. It also appears that for a male to genuinely enjoy the company of women is something weird or odd. Why can't an adult prefer to be around other adults that they want to associate with. There are many women that state they prefer male friends to female friends. That's their preference or personality, nothing nefarious should be read into it, without evidence.
- troupe 4y ago
  There are still all female colleges. I wouldn't consider it weird for a female to decide against an all female college because they want to be able to be around males. It also doesn't seem weird that they might want to avoid classes that are all female. If they have two degree options they are considering and one tends to be mostly female, it seems like that might factor into their degree selection as well without being weird.
- deelly 4y ago
  Same for both genders, of course! Of course?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
britch 4y ago
They at least had to attempt to earnestly learn the material. Going into "easy" courses you have already mastered to force interactions with others is different.
shadowfacts 4y ago
... Yes, choosing ones major based on dating prospects is definitely weird.
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  Until you realize your future family is about 100x more important and valuable than your future career.
  - runarberg 4y ago
    When you approach finding a partner like if you were finding a car or a career, that is definitely weird in my books. Humans have a remarkable ability to be attracted to one and other, it really takes no effort, as if we naturally evolved to do exactly that or something. Now getting attracted to a field of industry, art, or science, that is a lot harder and takes way more effort. Most people I know focus on the latter, and find partners anyway (if they so choose).
    - sinity 4y ago
      > Humans have a remarkable ability to be attracted to one and other, it really takes no effort, as if we naturally evolved to do exactly that or something. Therefore people wanting to but unable are not human, I guess.
      - runarberg 4y ago
        Do you know anybody that wants to be attracted to another person and is unable to? I know people have some conditions (such as psychopathy) where they don’t form attraction towards other people, I also know there are people that do form attractions but have a hard time expressing it (such as in autism), however I don’t know of any condition or neuro-diversity which wants to form attractions, but is unable to, that would be like a psychopath that still show empathy (which is kind of a contradiction). But if these people exist, they are still human. I merely said that humans have this capability, not that it was a necessary condition for human individuals.
boppo1 4y ago
Unattractive men with poor/awkward social skills who pursue romantic partners in 2023 are misogynistic. [Edit: It's sarcasm... mostly]
- sinity 4y ago
  It actually makes sense, kinda. Quoting from comment here: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-341080 https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-341080 > As Scott has kindly allowed this discussion to carry on, let me try to inject some more sisterly honesty into the question of dating and what women do or don’t want. > Let me start by noting that there are a few billions women in the world so the question as posed is ridiculous . In fact I will just say what the sort of women I know well want and leave you to guess how widely applicable this could be. Everything below is unbelievably obvious to most people but I feel is somehow being hidden from the argument by feminists. > In broad brush strokes, we would like the attractive men to find us attractive and potentially to hit on us *and the unattractive men not to notice we are women.* > In fact we want a very small percentage of men to find us unbelievably attractive and to hit on us, but in, you know, a nice way. We would like a slightly larger number of men, but still small, to find us very attractive but to do nothing about it (they can talk to each other about how hot and unattainable we are though) and the rest just to completely leave us alone and preferably have no thoughts about us at all. > But of course it’s not actually that simple, sometimes we don’t even want the hottest men to hit on us. It depends. *To achieve this attraction of the hottest men, we would, like millions of women, dress in a way that is designed to be maximally attractive. A lot of thought and a lot of money goes into the design of the clothes women wear and it’s not an accident that your eye naturally runs up the leg of the dress or down the cleavage*. But how can you dress in a way that is attractive to the men you want but not attractive to other men? How can you let it be known which subset should hit on you? You can’t of course. We Western women take a not very well calculated risk every day hoping that the odds will work out in our favor. > *It is of course disgusting when an unattractive man hits on you in any situation. You might say we should hit on men. Apart from the fact that you would then just reverse the problem, we don’t want to. Rejection is humiliating*. > As you may tell, we would like to have all our cakes and eat them at once. But who wouldn’t? Women are just like men, people. Those who are aware of the other nations of Earth will also notice that some cultures don’t think this degree of freedom for women is a good thing. Despite what our media may suggest, they are not simply insane. Although you may not agree with them, our system is not without its flaws. > My advice to nerdy men would simply be this. If you see a women you would like to date, ask her gently and respectfully (and only once) for a date somewhere non-threatening. How about lunch? She may reject you out of hand. If so, take it politely but confidently and move on and don’t worry about it. Everyone normal understands that what you have done is perfectly reasonable even though you may feel embarrassed at the time.
makeitdouble 4y ago
I assume you are using that phrasing as a proxy for "they want to date". To note, chosing a field with higher ratio of women can be good for completely different reasons. After spending years in almost 100% male environments, moving to more balanced and diverse environments was like night and day, the toxicity was mostly gone, discussions and communication would be more interesting etc. I heard the same for women moving away from women only places as well. So yes, looking at the ratio can be plenty helpful outside of any dating concern.
- troupe 4y ago
  In this case the student wanted to eventually get married and figured his chances were less if he was spending most of his time in classes of mostly males. So it was more of thinking that if he choose a degree path that resulted in fewer female friends, his odds of meeting the right person to marry were lower.
sinity 4y ago
> Really? I know people who specifically chose their entire major based on the ratio of women in that major. I've chosen my high school (CS-profiled) and major without any such consideration and ended up having ~0 contact with female peers through it all 'till now at 26 years old (and it's unlikely to change...) I'm an aspie so I guess that might've been for the best*... still, maybe something is slightly off with the society in which this can happen. It seems rather absurd. * Somewhen during middle or maybe even elementary school I figured I'm unable to understand dating and such, so I should just not attempt it / min-max. I didn't know I'm an aspie until maybe 2 months ago (or rather, I figured I probably am, but as it's permanent I didn't bother thinking about it much and researching information about specifics). It didn't bother me much, except now I've got an annoyingly persistent FOMO. Eh.

by troupe 4y ago

> It is weird when people take a class specifically because of that reason though. Really? I know people who specifically chose their entire major based on the ratio of women in that major.

wilsonnb3 4y ago

It is probably not weird in the hormone-addled mind of a teenager but yeah, I find it to be some combination of weird, pervy, sleazy, misogynistic, etc.

lazide 4y ago
Or, you know, not unusual for humans with healthy hormone levels. It’s like the attack of the puritans here.
fastball 4y ago
Wanting to spend more time with women is misogynistic? I don't want to whip out the dictionary definition of that word, but in what way does choosing classes to spend more time with women (because your existing classes are full of guys) mean you hate women?
- wilsonnb3 4y ago
  If you are someone who genuinely enjoys the company of women over the company of men, then I agree that it is not misogynistic. But that isn't really what we are talking about. The average hypothetical man choosing his class or major because of how many women are in it isn't looking to make female friends. He just wants to surround himself with a higher percentage of people that he is sexually attracted to.
  - notinfuriated 4y ago
    Are you saying that being sexually attracted to women is misogynistic? I assume you're not saying that, but you're not explaining why this behavior is misogynistic. At best, you might mean that if a man is sexually attracted to women, and he seeks out the company of women, then he must believe that women are sexual objects made strictly for his personal pleasure. Is that what you're trying to say?
    - wilsonnb3 4y ago
      > you might mean that if a man is sexually attracted to women, and he seeks out the company of women, then he must believe that women are sexual objects made strictly for his personal pleasure. I am sort of saying this but not as tautologically as you are stating it. I am saying that generally, when someone chooses a class or major because of the high percentage of people taking it that said person is sexually attracted to, said person is probably objectifying those people. Said person is probably not interested in friendships with those people or with the personality of those people. I am not saying that any situation in which a person seeks out another person that they are sexually attracted to is misogynistic or requires objectification.
      - Bancakes 4y ago
        Sex is not objectification, it’s a natural need. It’s an entirely different point to argue that a friendship between a man and a woman with zero (0) sexual interest, does not exist. What is this modern style thinking that sex is bad? Sex is a tool for love making.
      - Tozen 4y ago
        > I am saying that generally, when someone chooses a class or major because of the high percentage of people taking it that said person is sexually attracted to, said person is probably objectifying those people. Said person is probably not interested in friendships with those people or with the personality of those people. It comes across that you are demonizing natural and biological sexual attraction between the opposite sexes, and categorizing it as objectification and bad. Then there is oddly separating the possibility of friendship or having an interest in people beyond sexual attraction, as if this is not possible. To include, based on previous statements, these are probably misandric beliefs directed towards men in general. There is nothing wrong with being physically attracted to the opposite sex, and it's also possible to form friendships or be attracted to other aspects about them. A man can think of a woman as both physically attractive and intelligent. A woman can look at a man as both attractive and possessing a nice personality. And whatever are the attributes that attract one person to another, that is their right. It is not for a 3rd party to decide what two people find attractive between them. If they want only the purest of friendships or only completely sexual relationships, that is their prerogative. Of which, we usually can't truly know, because both men and women can lie. Only when the line is crossed towards actual violations of written legal policies, violations of human rights, or criminal behavior that it should become the concern of 3rd parties.
  - Tozen 4y ago
    > He just wants to surround himself with a higher percentage of people that he is sexually attracted to. This statement comes across as a bit misandric, but in way in which it appears not to be realized. It's demonizing males who are attracted to the opposite sex, which is natural biology, and as if men shouldn't be allowed to freely associate with other adults of the opposite sex. On the flip, I don't see women being demonized for wanting to be around a higher percentage of people she is sexually attracted to. Be it males or other females. To include if she chose a class or major with higher prospects for meeting the opposite sex, dating, or for greater marriage prospects. > The average hypothetical man choosing his class or major because of how many women are in it isn't looking to make female friends. Again, the casual male demonization and vilification, is both sad and amazing. Few people would come to the conclusion that a woman choosing her class or major based on greater opportunities with the opposite or same sex, would find that to be nefarious by default. > If you are someone who genuinely enjoys the company of women over the company of men, then I agree that it is not misogynistic. The later statements contradict this statement. It also appears that for a male to genuinely enjoy the company of women is something weird or odd. Why can't an adult prefer to be around other adults that they want to associate with. There are many women that state they prefer male friends to female friends. That's their preference or personality, nothing nefarious should be read into it, without evidence.
troupe 4y ago
There are still all female colleges. I wouldn't consider it weird for a female to decide against an all female college because they want to be able to be around males. It also doesn't seem weird that they might want to avoid classes that are all female. If they have two degree options they are considering and one tends to be mostly female, it seems like that might factor into their degree selection as well without being weird.
deelly 4y ago
Same for both genders, of course! Of course?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

britch 4y ago

They at least had to attempt to earnestly learn the material. Going into "easy" courses you have already mastered to force interactions with others is different.

shadowfacts 4y ago

... Yes, choosing ones major based on dating prospects is definitely weird.

WillPostForFood 4y ago
Until you realize your future family is about 100x more important and valuable than your future career.
- runarberg 4y ago
  When you approach finding a partner like if you were finding a car or a career, that is definitely weird in my books. Humans have a remarkable ability to be attracted to one and other, it really takes no effort, as if we naturally evolved to do exactly that or something. Now getting attracted to a field of industry, art, or science, that is a lot harder and takes way more effort. Most people I know focus on the latter, and find partners anyway (if they so choose).
  - sinity 4y ago
    > Humans have a remarkable ability to be attracted to one and other, it really takes no effort, as if we naturally evolved to do exactly that or something. Therefore people wanting to but unable are not human, I guess.
    - runarberg 4y ago
      Do you know anybody that wants to be attracted to another person and is unable to? I know people have some conditions (such as psychopathy) where they don’t form attraction towards other people, I also know there are people that do form attractions but have a hard time expressing it (such as in autism), however I don’t know of any condition or neuro-diversity which wants to form attractions, but is unable to, that would be like a psychopath that still show empathy (which is kind of a contradiction). But if these people exist, they are still human. I merely said that humans have this capability, not that it was a necessary condition for human individuals.

boppo1 4y ago

Unattractive men with poor/awkward social skills who pursue romantic partners in 2023 are misogynistic. [Edit: It's sarcasm... mostly]

sinity 4y ago
It actually makes sense, kinda. Quoting from comment here: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-341080 https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-341080 > As Scott has kindly allowed this discussion to carry on, let me try to inject some more sisterly honesty into the question of dating and what women do or don’t want. > Let me start by noting that there are a few billions women in the world so the question as posed is ridiculous . In fact I will just say what the sort of women I know well want and leave you to guess how widely applicable this could be. Everything below is unbelievably obvious to most people but I feel is somehow being hidden from the argument by feminists. > In broad brush strokes, we would like the attractive men to find us attractive and potentially to hit on us *and the unattractive men not to notice we are women.* > In fact we want a very small percentage of men to find us unbelievably attractive and to hit on us, but in, you know, a nice way. We would like a slightly larger number of men, but still small, to find us very attractive but to do nothing about it (they can talk to each other about how hot and unattainable we are though) and the rest just to completely leave us alone and preferably have no thoughts about us at all. > But of course it’s not actually that simple, sometimes we don’t even want the hottest men to hit on us. It depends. *To achieve this attraction of the hottest men, we would, like millions of women, dress in a way that is designed to be maximally attractive. A lot of thought and a lot of money goes into the design of the clothes women wear and it’s not an accident that your eye naturally runs up the leg of the dress or down the cleavage*. But how can you dress in a way that is attractive to the men you want but not attractive to other men? How can you let it be known which subset should hit on you? You can’t of course. We Western women take a not very well calculated risk every day hoping that the odds will work out in our favor. > *It is of course disgusting when an unattractive man hits on you in any situation. You might say we should hit on men. Apart from the fact that you would then just reverse the problem, we don’t want to. Rejection is humiliating*. > As you may tell, we would like to have all our cakes and eat them at once. But who wouldn’t? Women are just like men, people. Those who are aware of the other nations of Earth will also notice that some cultures don’t think this degree of freedom for women is a good thing. Despite what our media may suggest, they are not simply insane. Although you may not agree with them, our system is not without its flaws. > My advice to nerdy men would simply be this. If you see a women you would like to date, ask her gently and respectfully (and only once) for a date somewhere non-threatening. How about lunch? She may reject you out of hand. If so, take it politely but confidently and move on and don’t worry about it. Everyone normal understands that what you have done is perfectly reasonable even though you may feel embarrassed at the time.

makeitdouble 4y ago

I assume you are using that phrasing as a proxy for "they want to date". To note, chosing a field with higher ratio of women can be good for completely different reasons. After spending years in almost 100% male environments, moving to more balanced and diverse environments was like night and day, the toxicity was mostly gone, discussions and communication would be more interesting etc. I heard the same for women moving away from women only places as well. So yes, looking at the ratio can be plenty helpful outside of any dating concern.

troupe 4y ago
In this case the student wanted to eventually get married and figured his chances were less if he was spending most of his time in classes of mostly males. So it was more of thinking that if he choose a degree path that resulted in fewer female friends, his odds of meeting the right person to marry were lower.

sinity 4y ago

> Really? I know people who specifically chose their entire major based on the ratio of women in that major. I've chosen my high school (CS-profiled) and major without any such consideration and ended up having ~0 contact with female peers through it all 'till now at 26 years old (and it's unlikely to change...) I'm an aspie so I guess that might've been for the best*... still, maybe something is slightly off with the society in which this can happen. It seems rather absurd. * Somewhen during middle or maybe even elementary school I figured I'm unable to understand dating and such, so I should just not attempt it / min-max. I didn't know I'm an aspie until maybe 2 months ago (or rather, I figured I probably am, but as it's permanent I didn't bother thinking about it much and researching information about specifics). It didn't bother me much, except now I've got an annoyingly persistent FOMO. Eh.