5 ms·

Birth rates are tanking because of increased access to contraceptives and people having the wealth and freedom to enjoy their 20s and 30s unburdened by children

by dymk 4y ago

t-writescode 4y ago
> people having the wealth and freedom to enjoy their 20s and 30s unburdened by children and people *not* having the wealth and freedom to have children, being burdened by 80+ hour work weeks to pay rent on a place they'll never own or have capital in. Listen to the millenials and gen z'ers before you make bold accusations.
- nvrmnd 4y ago
  I spent some time researching this after reading your comment, not a lot admittedly. There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty around the topic but I came away with the impression the parent comment is closer to the truth than your own.
- abigail95 4y ago
  you need an enormous income before you have kids at the replacement rate, many multiples of the cost of their care. in every meaningful sense the income/fertility relationship is negative.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  Unintended pregnancies have continued to rise among the poor and fall among the wealthy (including folks with decent birth control who don't think they can afford a child) for decades now. This data's a little old, but makes the point: https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2013/unintended-pregnancy-remains-persistent-problem-united-states-disparities-income https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2013/unintended-preg...
- dymk 4y ago
  Go look at some graphs, when wealth and education go up, birth rates go down.
Aperocky 4y ago
More like people could not save up enough wealth and freedom in their 20s and 30s to afford children.
ipaddr 4y ago
Or more likely something within our food / water chain labeled safe and unharmful. Birth control pills part of the drinking water supply is a popular theory
- pyth0 4y ago
  > Or more likely something within our food / water chain No. That is definitely not more likely.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Low testosterone caused by these factors is most likely the cause.
SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
My wife and I are having a very hard time convincing ourselves to have kids for exactly this reason. We're wealthy, free to pursue our hobbies, and advance in our careers. Nobody's body is getting wrecked, nobody's free time and sleep is getting upended, and it's generally a Very Good Time. Both having kids and not having kids feels selfish for different reasons. It's hard to really feel like there's a right answer here.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  I strongly recommend against it. We had kids and it has wrecked our mid 30s and early 40s. It’s only going to work out because I made prudent investments earlier in life and built a robust network of colleagues who help ensure I’m fully employed at all times. Embrace what you have, life is short. Don’t sacrifice happiness for FOMO.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- girvo 4y ago
  What argument is there for "not having kids" being selfish? I guess by the strictest definition, it means you're taking time for yourself over some hypothetical child? But to me, selfishness requires someone you're harming by doing so, and that child doesn't exist, so there is no harm. For what it's worth, my partner and I have made the same decision. We're not having children. It's already too difficult to buy a home here in Brisbane, let alone with the spectre of climate change related problems in the future. And, more to the point, we love our lives as-is!
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    It's a tragedy of the commons issue; if everyone decides as you do, the species stops existing, so not having kids is a luxury decision you get to make on the backs of the rest of the species. Of course having kids is also selfish, as it's bringing someone into this world just to fulfil your biological imperative to reproduce; you create a human being that will (if you don't screw it up) love you for the rest of your life, and your gift to them is this fucked up world, forced to consume scarce resources that may already be gone by the time they're old enough to actually enjoy being a human.
sinity 4y ago
Half of men under 30 are single in my country. Yeah, sure. Lots of enjoyment for everyone. Women are relatively lonelier than in the past too.

Birth rates are tanking because of increased access to contraceptives and people having the wealth and freedom to enjoy their 20s and 30s unburdened by children

by dymk 4y ago

Birth rates are tanking because of increased access to contraceptives and people having the wealth and freedom to enjoy their 20s and 30s unburdened by children

t-writescode 4y ago

> people having the wealth and freedom to enjoy their 20s and 30s unburdened by children and people *not* having the wealth and freedom to have children, being burdened by 80+ hour work weeks to pay rent on a place they'll never own or have capital in. Listen to the millenials and gen z'ers before you make bold accusations.

nvrmnd 4y ago
I spent some time researching this after reading your comment, not a lot admittedly. There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty around the topic but I came away with the impression the parent comment is closer to the truth than your own.
abigail95 4y ago
you need an enormous income before you have kids at the replacement rate, many multiples of the cost of their care. in every meaningful sense the income/fertility relationship is negative.
drewcoo 4y ago
Unintended pregnancies have continued to rise among the poor and fall among the wealthy (including folks with decent birth control who don't think they can afford a child) for decades now. This data's a little old, but makes the point: https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2013/unintended-pregnancy-remains-persistent-problem-united-states-disparities-income https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2013/unintended-preg...
dymk 4y ago
Go look at some graphs, when wealth and education go up, birth rates go down.

Aperocky 4y ago

More like people could not save up enough wealth and freedom in their 20s and 30s to afford children.

ipaddr 4y ago

Or more likely something within our food / water chain labeled safe and unharmful. Birth control pills part of the drinking water supply is a popular theory

pyth0 4y ago
> Or more likely something within our food / water chain No. That is definitely not more likely.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Low testosterone caused by these factors is most likely the cause.

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago

My wife and I are having a very hard time convincing ourselves to have kids for exactly this reason. We're wealthy, free to pursue our hobbies, and advance in our careers. Nobody's body is getting wrecked, nobody's free time and sleep is getting upended, and it's generally a Very Good Time. Both having kids and not having kids feels selfish for different reasons. It's hard to really feel like there's a right answer here.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
I strongly recommend against it. We had kids and it has wrecked our mid 30s and early 40s. It’s only going to work out because I made prudent investments earlier in life and built a robust network of colleagues who help ensure I’m fully employed at all times. Embrace what you have, life is short. Don’t sacrifice happiness for FOMO.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
girvo 4y ago
What argument is there for "not having kids" being selfish? I guess by the strictest definition, it means you're taking time for yourself over some hypothetical child? But to me, selfishness requires someone you're harming by doing so, and that child doesn't exist, so there is no harm. For what it's worth, my partner and I have made the same decision. We're not having children. It's already too difficult to buy a home here in Brisbane, let alone with the spectre of climate change related problems in the future. And, more to the point, we love our lives as-is!
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  It's a tragedy of the commons issue; if everyone decides as you do, the species stops existing, so not having kids is a luxury decision you get to make on the backs of the rest of the species. Of course having kids is also selfish, as it's bringing someone into this world just to fulfil your biological imperative to reproduce; you create a human being that will (if you don't screw it up) love you for the rest of your life, and your gift to them is this fucked up world, forced to consume scarce resources that may already be gone by the time they're old enough to actually enjoy being a human.

sinity 4y ago

Half of men under 30 are single in my country. Yeah, sure. Lots of enjoyment for everyone. Women are relatively lonelier than in the past too.