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> And further that there really aren't any conversational or listening 'skills'. This is absolutely not true. You just happened to learn them intrinsically. Th

> And further that there really aren't any conversational or listening 'skills'. This is absolutely not true. You just happened to learn them intrinsically. This is why most people make terrible language partners/teachers. You are right about most of the books, but that's because they find some technique or tool that seems like an aha to them, so they write a book. The real skills of conversation are at the how and why levels. Everything you write rings true to me now, but as someone who had to learn these skills explicitly, you sound like you don't get why people might have trouble with these things. Which is fine, but don't go to write a "why don't you just ..." post. It feels very dismissive. The list of things you wrote sounds like a bunch of unrelated and random advice to people who don't understand HOW to relate to others yet.

vinceguidry 4y ago
Thinking about relating to others in terms of skill development is a very good way to slow yourself down and never try a cleaner, more authentic approach that offers instant results. That’s my point. If you took a skill-based approach years ago and discovered a lot of hows and whys, that’s great for you. You’ve earned something special. My friend min-maxed online dating, and it resulted in a horrendous marriage that only lasted a few years and he never gets to see his daughter. I can see how my words might be dismissive of this approach, and I can’t deny that there is a slight amount of it there. But the reality of the situation is that humans are hardwired for connecting with each other, and it’s a million times easier to lean into this billion year old circuitry, than to try to reinvent that wheel. You absolutely can reinvent it, but don’t let the siren song of mastery distract you from good enough and getting better over time.
- solarmist 4y ago
  My point is: "if their social skills are already messed up (through no fault of their own), your description offers no help or hope to those people." My counter is that it IS possible to learn these things. Still, it is important to keep digging deeper beyond techniques to find these hows and whys (I don't have a good description of how to do that, though. It took me 15 years and continues); otherwise, you end up in the situation your friend did. You are lucky. You seem blissfully unaware of how badly messed up "built-in" skills can get when ignoring (or actively countering) those skills is vital to surviving until adulthood. You are right. It is about letting go of fear and ego. But I was raised by my single father, who his father emotionally neglected. My father has the emotional maturity of a middle schooler with a large amount of unresolved trauma. As a result, I was severely emotionally and instrumentally neglected as a child (I had food, shelter, clothing, and hugs [that was the extent of my father's understanding of being a loving parent], but that was it) and suffered CPTSD caused by uncontrolled alcoholism and parentification (as a child, I was forced to ignore my needs and emotions to care for my father). I never saw what a functional and healthy relationship (family or friend) looked like until I was an adult. By then, I had lost the ability to be unguarded or trusting to others, except in unemotional contexts like school or work. So I could only observe the most public and visible interactions between people. So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me?
  - vinceguidry 4y ago
    Your social skills are not "messed up." You still possess the same limbic system shared by billions of humans and hundreds of billions of mammals. You need the same things that everyone else does, love, affection, nurturing, care. These needs are fundamentally how and why humans interact, and tuning into this fact, that you need them, that others need them, that everyone needs them, is how you connect with others. You are not alone. Both of the parents I grew up with had extremely abusive childhoods. My mom's abuse under her stepmother was so bad and visible the whole neighborhood chipped in to give her a break. My step-dad's step-dad's chicanery directly led to his little brother's death. I live with a kid whose mom committed suicide, and his dad blamed him for it. My sister's ex-husband had to take care of his siblings from a very early age. (parentified) Her second ex-husband's brother committed suicide. I managed to escape major damage because my parents made damn sure to not replicate the cycle. Out of all of these people, only one of them felt the need to create a logical system to improve their lives with by, that's the kid whose mom committed suicide. It did not help him significantly. I am having to be the father figure to him that he lacked. They all eventually grew up to be healthy, productive adults, if somewhat emotionally stunted, if only to my observation, and the kid will eventually. None of them will become less emotionally stunted by gamifying their social skills. > So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me? Looking back, one of my biggest influences was this guy that was assigned to 'babysit' me while I was a screw-up in the military. I was exceptionally angry at the military and I simply didn't care anymore. So they had me follow him around. He struck me as being exceptionally friendly and social. His manner with women was easy, I really felt like I could relax around him. He assuredly did not treat human interaction as a skill to learn and I would think back to our times together years later when I was trying to learn 'pick up artist' skills from David DeAngelo and the like. There's nothing any keyboard warrior can do to actually help someone that's hurting as bad as you were. I know this. All I can do is assert the truth, no matter how hard that truth is to hear. I cannot offer you the same experience I just related to you of my military friend. He was 'just talk and listen' as a living example. I strive to offer it to anyone and everyone who sees in me an example to follow. Perhaps the advice should be adjusted to: "Just talk and listen, and if you have trouble just doing this, look to others to show you how"
    - 4y ago

vinceguidry 4y ago

Thinking about relating to others in terms of skill development is a very good way to slow yourself down and never try a cleaner, more authentic approach that offers instant results. That’s my point. If you took a skill-based approach years ago and discovered a lot of hows and whys, that’s great for you. You’ve earned something special. My friend min-maxed online dating, and it resulted in a horrendous marriage that only lasted a few years and he never gets to see his daughter. I can see how my words might be dismissive of this approach, and I can’t deny that there is a slight amount of it there. But the reality of the situation is that humans are hardwired for connecting with each other, and it’s a million times easier to lean into this billion year old circuitry, than to try to reinvent that wheel. You absolutely can reinvent it, but don’t let the siren song of mastery distract you from good enough and getting better over time.

solarmist 4y ago
My point is: "if their social skills are already messed up (through no fault of their own), your description offers no help or hope to those people." My counter is that it IS possible to learn these things. Still, it is important to keep digging deeper beyond techniques to find these hows and whys (I don't have a good description of how to do that, though. It took me 15 years and continues); otherwise, you end up in the situation your friend did. You are lucky. You seem blissfully unaware of how badly messed up "built-in" skills can get when ignoring (or actively countering) those skills is vital to surviving until adulthood. You are right. It is about letting go of fear and ego. But I was raised by my single father, who his father emotionally neglected. My father has the emotional maturity of a middle schooler with a large amount of unresolved trauma. As a result, I was severely emotionally and instrumentally neglected as a child (I had food, shelter, clothing, and hugs [that was the extent of my father's understanding of being a loving parent], but that was it) and suffered CPTSD caused by uncontrolled alcoholism and parentification (as a child, I was forced to ignore my needs and emotions to care for my father). I never saw what a functional and healthy relationship (family or friend) looked like until I was an adult. By then, I had lost the ability to be unguarded or trusting to others, except in unemotional contexts like school or work. So I could only observe the most public and visible interactions between people. So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me?
- vinceguidry 4y ago
  Your social skills are not "messed up." You still possess the same limbic system shared by billions of humans and hundreds of billions of mammals. You need the same things that everyone else does, love, affection, nurturing, care. These needs are fundamentally how and why humans interact, and tuning into this fact, that you need them, that others need them, that everyone needs them, is how you connect with others. You are not alone. Both of the parents I grew up with had extremely abusive childhoods. My mom's abuse under her stepmother was so bad and visible the whole neighborhood chipped in to give her a break. My step-dad's step-dad's chicanery directly led to his little brother's death. I live with a kid whose mom committed suicide, and his dad blamed him for it. My sister's ex-husband had to take care of his siblings from a very early age. (parentified) Her second ex-husband's brother committed suicide. I managed to escape major damage because my parents made damn sure to not replicate the cycle. Out of all of these people, only one of them felt the need to create a logical system to improve their lives with by, that's the kid whose mom committed suicide. It did not help him significantly. I am having to be the father figure to him that he lacked. They all eventually grew up to be healthy, productive adults, if somewhat emotionally stunted, if only to my observation, and the kid will eventually. None of them will become less emotionally stunted by gamifying their social skills. > So tell me how "You just talk and listen" would help me? Looking back, one of my biggest influences was this guy that was assigned to 'babysit' me while I was a screw-up in the military. I was exceptionally angry at the military and I simply didn't care anymore. So they had me follow him around. He struck me as being exceptionally friendly and social. His manner with women was easy, I really felt like I could relax around him. He assuredly did not treat human interaction as a skill to learn and I would think back to our times together years later when I was trying to learn 'pick up artist' skills from David DeAngelo and the like. There's nothing any keyboard warrior can do to actually help someone that's hurting as bad as you were. I know this. All I can do is assert the truth, no matter how hard that truth is to hear. I cannot offer you the same experience I just related to you of my military friend. He was 'just talk and listen' as a living example. I strive to offer it to anyone and everyone who sees in me an example to follow. Perhaps the advice should be adjusted to: "Just talk and listen, and if you have trouble just doing this, look to others to show you how"
  - 4y ago