4 ms·

Please, elucidate. I'd love to hear about all the superior programming environments developed in non-capitalist economies.

seanw444 4y ago
To be fair, FOSS is pretty much the definition of socialism. Donations are pretty much the only way money is made directly off the software itself. Running an instance of the software, if it's a server for example, is a slightly different story. Everyone contributes of their own volition and interest. I'm not a fan of government-enforced socialism or communism. But if you can get enough people together to willingly participate independently, I'm chill with it. And FOSS software is an example of it working out alright.
- shakow 4y ago
  > the definition of socialism. Donations are pretty much the only way money is made That's not the definition of socialism at all. If you think about it, it's actually much closer to the principle of right-wing Christian charity rather than the left-wing sharing of means of production.
  - andyjda 4y ago
    Christian charity is not a right-wing principle. Many in the US tend to associate Christianity with right-wing ideology, but there's actually quite a few examples of a varied history of left-wing Christian thought and action. Sticking to US history: Reverend Martin Luther King, Jimmy Carter, Dorothy Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day). Outside of the US, Liberation Theology in Latin America was an ideology/movement explicitly linking Christian (mostly Catholic) teachings with Marxist-inspired struggles for workers' rights (sometimes those links are easy to do, if you focus on quotes such as "blessed are the poor"). I do agree that FOS software is not socialism, and that donations aren't socialism. But it's important to note that many people who work on FOS software do so without expecting anything in return. I think that idea is in sharp contrast with typical right-wing and centrist economic theories that view human beings as mostly money-driven, self-centered individuals.
    - shakow 4y ago
      We're falling in the pitfall of ‶left and right are different depending on where you're standing″. I'm 100% sure what you say is true in your country; but in mine, being religious and eschewing the state-based, tax-backed wealth redistribution in favor of the personal, charity-based one definitely puts you as left-wing.
    - mbork_pl 4y ago
      As a Catholic I assure you that you can't reconcile Christianity with left-wing ideology. And I fully agree that FOSS is not necessarily socialist.
      - Synaesthesia 4y ago
        Christianity is fully compatible with a society where people can make meaningful decisions over things which affect them, with democratic control their workplace and community. In fact Tolstoy came to this conclusion, that Christian ideology says we should have no bosses, and not dominate or control other people.
      - dctoedt 4y ago
        > As a Catholic I assure you that you can't reconcile Christianity with left-wing ideology. Did you mean right-wing ideology? (Calling @tptacek and @patio11 ....)
        mbork_pl 4y ago
        I suppose there are various right-wing ideologies, and some of them may be compatible with Christianity. I cannot imagine any left-wing ideology (which is at best wrong and at worst downright evil) compatible with Christianity.
        dctoedt 4y ago
        Out of curiosity: In general, how would you describe "left-wing ideology" and "Christianity"?
- asymmetric 4y ago
  Rather than of socialism, I’d say FLOSS is a form of (digital) commons, which as GP points out, is a pre-capitalist/non-capitalist form of production and management.
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    thats a good point, probably people are colloquially using socialism to mean "the opposite of capitalism", but what it really is just one of many alternatives on that usage then i think the proper wording for "the opposite of capitalism" would be something like non-capitalist (or even anti-capitalist maybe?) (apologies for the depression)
    - Synaesthesia 4y ago
      Socialism can mean a lot of things. But originally it meant the control and management of society by workers, on a democratic basis, including the workplace.
Synaesthesia 4y ago
People developed these great environments like EMACS and other open source software out of passion, not because they were chasing profits. There are many instances where seeking profits, as in the corporate world, reduces innovation and creates a short term mindset. A lot of the best research comes out of state-funded labs, even the development of the transistor and the computer in the USA, the development of the internet, all funded by the state.
- throwawaysalome 4y ago
  You're painting with broad a brushstroke. Both good and bad things emerge from the public and private sectors. Despite often falling into the "worse is better" trap, self-interest is our species' most potent innovator, modulo purgative events like WW2 when all our intellectual capital returned to the state.

seanw444 4y ago

To be fair, FOSS is pretty much the definition of socialism. Donations are pretty much the only way money is made directly off the software itself. Running an instance of the software, if it's a server for example, is a slightly different story. Everyone contributes of their own volition and interest. I'm not a fan of government-enforced socialism or communism. But if you can get enough people together to willingly participate independently, I'm chill with it. And FOSS software is an example of it working out alright.

shakow 4y ago
> the definition of socialism. Donations are pretty much the only way money is made That's not the definition of socialism at all. If you think about it, it's actually much closer to the principle of right-wing Christian charity rather than the left-wing sharing of means of production.
- andyjda 4y ago
  Christian charity is not a right-wing principle. Many in the US tend to associate Christianity with right-wing ideology, but there's actually quite a few examples of a varied history of left-wing Christian thought and action. Sticking to US history: Reverend Martin Luther King, Jimmy Carter, Dorothy Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day). Outside of the US, Liberation Theology in Latin America was an ideology/movement explicitly linking Christian (mostly Catholic) teachings with Marxist-inspired struggles for workers' rights (sometimes those links are easy to do, if you focus on quotes such as "blessed are the poor"). I do agree that FOS software is not socialism, and that donations aren't socialism. But it's important to note that many people who work on FOS software do so without expecting anything in return. I think that idea is in sharp contrast with typical right-wing and centrist economic theories that view human beings as mostly money-driven, self-centered individuals.
  - shakow 4y ago
    We're falling in the pitfall of ‶left and right are different depending on where you're standing″. I'm 100% sure what you say is true in your country; but in mine, being religious and eschewing the state-based, tax-backed wealth redistribution in favor of the personal, charity-based one definitely puts you as left-wing.
  - mbork_pl 4y ago
    As a Catholic I assure you that you can't reconcile Christianity with left-wing ideology. And I fully agree that FOSS is not necessarily socialist.
    - Synaesthesia 4y ago
      Christianity is fully compatible with a society where people can make meaningful decisions over things which affect them, with democratic control their workplace and community. In fact Tolstoy came to this conclusion, that Christian ideology says we should have no bosses, and not dominate or control other people.
    - dctoedt 4y ago
      > As a Catholic I assure you that you can't reconcile Christianity with left-wing ideology. Did you mean right-wing ideology? (Calling @tptacek and @patio11 ....)
      - mbork_pl 4y ago
        I suppose there are various right-wing ideologies, and some of them may be compatible with Christianity. I cannot imagine any left-wing ideology (which is at best wrong and at worst downright evil) compatible with Christianity.
        dctoedt 4y ago
        Out of curiosity: In general, how would you describe "left-wing ideology" and "Christianity"?
asymmetric 4y ago
Rather than of socialism, I’d say FLOSS is a form of (digital) commons, which as GP points out, is a pre-capitalist/non-capitalist form of production and management.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  thats a good point, probably people are colloquially using socialism to mean "the opposite of capitalism", but what it really is just one of many alternatives on that usage then i think the proper wording for "the opposite of capitalism" would be something like non-capitalist (or even anti-capitalist maybe?) (apologies for the depression)
  - Synaesthesia 4y ago
    Socialism can mean a lot of things. But originally it meant the control and management of society by workers, on a democratic basis, including the workplace.

Synaesthesia 4y ago

People developed these great environments like EMACS and other open source software out of passion, not because they were chasing profits. There are many instances where seeking profits, as in the corporate world, reduces innovation and creates a short term mindset. A lot of the best research comes out of state-funded labs, even the development of the transistor and the computer in the USA, the development of the internet, all funded by the state.

throwawaysalome 4y ago
You're painting with broad a brushstroke. Both good and bad things emerge from the public and private sectors. Despite often falling into the "worse is better" trap, self-interest is our species' most potent innovator, modulo purgative events like WW2 when all our intellectual capital returned to the state.