8 ms·

Hypertext Emacs: You may not need org-mode

85 points by bwestergard 4y ago

erik_seaberg 4y ago
I mostly use org-mode as an outline and table editor and notebook (here’s a shell command, here’s what happened when I ran it). File links work but I usually just hop into dired.
throwanem 4y ago
Org links are complex and difficult to use only until you discover `org-store-link' and `org-insert-link', and bind the former globally.
ziroshima 4y ago
I started going down the org-mode rabbit hole when I was investigating emacs last year. Then I came across Obsidian (https://obsidian.md/ https://obsidian.md/) and haven't looked back.
- azaras 4y ago
  What do you like about obsidian that org-mode does not have?
  - CJefferson 4y ago
    I use obsidian, and the two big advantages are: 1) high quality mobile client and syncing. 2) It uses the same standard keys as every other GUI program on whatever OS I use it on -- I don't want to go "full Emacs".
  - srndsnd 4y ago
    Some common issues I ran across that pushed me to Obsidian (for now) were mobile app support, package maintenance, and difficulty configuring and maintaining. Many people have no difficulty setting up and maintaining an app like beorg and orgzly, but translating the many keybinds and modes to a ml mobile interface can be cumbersome. I've personally experienced issues with folding large org files, not to mention the act of actually keeping the files in sync. SyncThing / rsync works for many, but is another tool to maintain. Even if you can get your files right, the workflow on mobile is not up to par with desktop, and I've had a much easier time with Obsidian sync. Which leads to package managment. It can be harder to depend on the goodwill of open source maintainers to find solutions to corner cases, particularly if you find something that becomes a staple of your workflow. If my choices are become a competent Elisp developer or kick someone a fee to keep working on a project, I'm picking the latter. I personally still am hesitant to push more and more of my workflow onto org-roam knowing it was birthed as a labor of love and a side project, knowing that it might not be maintained, or that versions will require labor and patching on my part to roll out, as was the case with the jump from org-roam v1 to v2. Also, depending on how you do choose to setup emacs, it can be a house of cards to set up all your packages and keep them running and up to date. Even if you are really savvy with elisp, keeping your versions, packages, and dotfiles in working order across multiple systems (not to mention mobile, as above) can be daunting. And not all platforms are supported equally. Configuring doom emacs to run on my Windows 10 work machine was and is not easy. Obsidian installed and opened in one click. I get and understand supporting open source and if that's an objective, logseq seems to be doing a great job on that front. It's still missing some features that would push me to switch over entirely (their Android support is non-existent, and many plugins I loved on emacs and Obsidian I haven't found a nice solution for (time-tracking and time blocking, and not even Obsidian can match org's export features, but markdown works fine for now, while logseq files were difficult to format). Overall, I love org mode and want it to be my daily driver. But at the end of the day I have to remember that I can't let knowledge management be a part-time job. I was spending so much time tinkering with tooling that it was impacting the very thing it was supposed to help: my workflow. Maybe someday I'll revisit org over several cups of coffee and a rainy afternoon, but Obsidian and Todoist will take care of me until then.
    - chrisweekly 4y ago
      > "not even Obsidian can match org's export features" As a very happy Obsidian user I'm curious which export features you're missing; "there's a plugin for that" is trite but a safe bet.
  - PurpleRamen 4y ago
    Obsidian is using the webstack, so you get more fancy interface-elements. The crowd is also technerdy and more focused on different areas, so the features implemented in extensions have a different angle, are more focused on knowledge managment and using non-lisp-languages.
ploum 4y ago
As a Vim user, I’m curious to know what I’m really missing. Vimwiki is doing exactly what I think it should (creating links under the cursor by simply pressing "return" and following them). But I feel org-mode might be a lot more.
- gipp 4y ago
  Also Vim user, and I've always been a little baffled by org-mode in general. There are several Neovim plugins that try to replicate it (either real org-mode compatibility or just a spiritual association), and I've really struggled to understand what the use-case even is. It just seems like so much overhead to even grok org-mode, keep a sane and meaningful hierarchy of your ideas and keep it up-to-date... seems like a ton of work over just using your inbox and calendar as your "external mind". People constantly sing its praises and the advantages it brings but I've never seen it articulated what those actually are.
  - margarina72 4y ago
    org-mode is a markdown like language. In itself it doesn't have anything special. But the ecosystem of integration in emacs makes it a very rich experience. Both the UX of integration (seemless idea capture, outline manipulations etc.) and the breadth of application (email writing, gantt generation, accounting compute and reporting, RSS reading and sorting, slide presentations, agenda integration, time card reporting, invoice generation etc.) in combination it becomes a very hard to describe experience, precisely because it is so rich and varied while at the same time very streamlined because everything is text, and it all behave intuitively.
- susam 4y ago
  I use org-mode primarily for maintaining spreadsheets containing tables of data where the tables may be related to each other. As I enter new data into the tables or edit existing data, I may want to automatically recompute aggregate data pertaining to those tables. For example, I may want to recompute the totals or averages using the data in these tables. Further, I may want to write some Elisp code in the same file that composes new tables automatically based on the data in the existing tables. This is the kind of spreadsheet management work I use org-mode for. Here is a simple example that illustrates some of the points I made in the previous paragraph: https://github.com/susam/lab/blob/main/emacs/org/total-of-totals.org https://github.com/susam/lab/blob/main/emacs/org/total-of-to...
bobchadwick 4y ago
Vim user here. Is this functionality not widely known in the Emacs world? In Vim's normal mode, gf will do the same thing and I'm under the impression it's a pretty widely used command.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  it's known but not put forth as much as vim it seems. a case of subpar defaults in a way
- susam 4y ago
  I have been a user of Vim as well as Emacs. Vim's gf command and M-x ffap RET of Emacs were both known to me since my early days of using these editors.
chriswarbo 4y ago
My Emacs config replaces the default 'find-file' with the 'find-file-at-point' mentioned in the article, so the keybinding is just C-x C-f I also modify it slightly to look for line-numbers and column-numbers, so pressing C-x C-f when the cursor is on '/home/chriswarbo/foo.txt:135:23' will open that foo.txt file, then navigate to line 135 and column 23. This is especially useful when looking through compiler messages, etc. https://github.com/Warbo/warbo-emacs-d/blob/5e8b18dbae1767a9f8590c62e80637456827ee66/personal/generic.el#L217 https://github.com/Warbo/warbo-emacs-d/blob/5e8b18dbae1767a9...
- vithlani 4y ago
  [dead]
- NoThisIsMe 4y ago
  We do this in evil-mode too except it's bound to `g F`
jrootabega 4y ago
I believe that GNU Hyperbole (an Emacs package) is meant to comprehensively cover this approach: https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/ https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/
mik1998 4y ago
> The org-mode extension to emacs is popular in part because it lets you create and follow hyperlinks between files. Huh? I almost never use this feature. Mostly, I use org-mode for the markup, org-capture, org-agenda and org-export.
- jolmg 4y ago
  To be fair, it says "in part" and I'm sure different users use different subsets of features. For example, I've never used export, but do a lot of refiling and archiving, which you didn't mention.
djha-skin 4y ago
I have been able to kick org-mode using a few keybindings. I was even able to switch to Vim: https://blog.djha.skin/p/planning-and-notes-using-markdown-in-neovim/ https://blog.djha.skin/p/planning-and-notes-using-markdown-i...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gpvos 4y ago
https://archive.is/dnheK https://archive.is/dnheK
kkfx 4y ago
I use org-mode, first because it's an outliner, secondly because at point I can do much more then links, I can also execute code, have personal link-types to do things, I can have attachments, query my notes with org-ql etc I've also tried Hyperbole but, no, org-mode is used because it do much more than anything else, and so Emacs as a whole vs gazillion of modern individual apps loosely connected by GUIs IPCs (copy&paste, drag&drop)...
wdkrnls 4y ago
I share the author's excitement for gemtext. It is a minimal format with a great accessibility story and I can expect it to still make sense in 10 years. Meanwhile org files quickly become dated as the format evolves and Emacs library becomes more bloated and convoluted. Instead of including tables, link to a CSV file. Keep things simple. Stop making documents for presentation. Accessibility is way more important.

85 points by bwestergard 4y ago

I mostly use org-mode as an outline and table editor and notebook (here’s a shell command, here’s what happened when I ran it). File links work but I usually just hop into dired.

throwanem 4y ago

Org links are complex and difficult to use only until you discover `org-store-link' and `org-insert-link', and bind the former globally.

ziroshima 4y ago

I started going down the org-mode rabbit hole when I was investigating emacs last year. Then I came across Obsidian (https://obsidian.md/ https://obsidian.md/) and haven't looked back.

azaras 4y ago
What do you like about obsidian that org-mode does not have?
- CJefferson 4y ago
  I use obsidian, and the two big advantages are: 1) high quality mobile client and syncing. 2) It uses the same standard keys as every other GUI program on whatever OS I use it on -- I don't want to go "full Emacs".
- srndsnd 4y ago
  Some common issues I ran across that pushed me to Obsidian (for now) were mobile app support, package maintenance, and difficulty configuring and maintaining. Many people have no difficulty setting up and maintaining an app like beorg and orgzly, but translating the many keybinds and modes to a ml mobile interface can be cumbersome. I've personally experienced issues with folding large org files, not to mention the act of actually keeping the files in sync. SyncThing / rsync works for many, but is another tool to maintain. Even if you can get your files right, the workflow on mobile is not up to par with desktop, and I've had a much easier time with Obsidian sync. Which leads to package managment. It can be harder to depend on the goodwill of open source maintainers to find solutions to corner cases, particularly if you find something that becomes a staple of your workflow. If my choices are become a competent Elisp developer or kick someone a fee to keep working on a project, I'm picking the latter. I personally still am hesitant to push more and more of my workflow onto org-roam knowing it was birthed as a labor of love and a side project, knowing that it might not be maintained, or that versions will require labor and patching on my part to roll out, as was the case with the jump from org-roam v1 to v2. Also, depending on how you do choose to setup emacs, it can be a house of cards to set up all your packages and keep them running and up to date. Even if you are really savvy with elisp, keeping your versions, packages, and dotfiles in working order across multiple systems (not to mention mobile, as above) can be daunting. And not all platforms are supported equally. Configuring doom emacs to run on my Windows 10 work machine was and is not easy. Obsidian installed and opened in one click. I get and understand supporting open source and if that's an objective, logseq seems to be doing a great job on that front. It's still missing some features that would push me to switch over entirely (their Android support is non-existent, and many plugins I loved on emacs and Obsidian I haven't found a nice solution for (time-tracking and time blocking, and not even Obsidian can match org's export features, but markdown works fine for now, while logseq files were difficult to format). Overall, I love org mode and want it to be my daily driver. But at the end of the day I have to remember that I can't let knowledge management be a part-time job. I was spending so much time tinkering with tooling that it was impacting the very thing it was supposed to help: my workflow. Maybe someday I'll revisit org over several cups of coffee and a rainy afternoon, but Obsidian and Todoist will take care of me until then.
  - chrisweekly 4y ago
    > "not even Obsidian can match org's export features" As a very happy Obsidian user I'm curious which export features you're missing; "there's a plugin for that" is trite but a safe bet.
- PurpleRamen 4y ago
  Obsidian is using the webstack, so you get more fancy interface-elements. The crowd is also technerdy and more focused on different areas, so the features implemented in extensions have a different angle, are more focused on knowledge managment and using non-lisp-languages.

ploum 4y ago

As a Vim user, I’m curious to know what I’m really missing. Vimwiki is doing exactly what I think it should (creating links under the cursor by simply pressing "return" and following them). But I feel org-mode might be a lot more.

gipp 4y ago
Also Vim user, and I've always been a little baffled by org-mode in general. There are several Neovim plugins that try to replicate it (either real org-mode compatibility or just a spiritual association), and I've really struggled to understand what the use-case even is. It just seems like so much overhead to even grok org-mode, keep a sane and meaningful hierarchy of your ideas and keep it up-to-date... seems like a ton of work over just using your inbox and calendar as your "external mind". People constantly sing its praises and the advantages it brings but I've never seen it articulated what those actually are.
- margarina72 4y ago
  org-mode is a markdown like language. In itself it doesn't have anything special. But the ecosystem of integration in emacs makes it a very rich experience. Both the UX of integration (seemless idea capture, outline manipulations etc.) and the breadth of application (email writing, gantt generation, accounting compute and reporting, RSS reading and sorting, slide presentations, agenda integration, time card reporting, invoice generation etc.) in combination it becomes a very hard to describe experience, precisely because it is so rich and varied while at the same time very streamlined because everything is text, and it all behave intuitively.
susam 4y ago
I use org-mode primarily for maintaining spreadsheets containing tables of data where the tables may be related to each other. As I enter new data into the tables or edit existing data, I may want to automatically recompute aggregate data pertaining to those tables. For example, I may want to recompute the totals or averages using the data in these tables. Further, I may want to write some Elisp code in the same file that composes new tables automatically based on the data in the existing tables. This is the kind of spreadsheet management work I use org-mode for. Here is a simple example that illustrates some of the points I made in the previous paragraph: https://github.com/susam/lab/blob/main/emacs/org/total-of-totals.org https://github.com/susam/lab/blob/main/emacs/org/total-of-to...

bobchadwick 4y ago

Vim user here. Is this functionality not widely known in the Emacs world? In Vim's normal mode, gf will do the same thing and I'm under the impression it's a pretty widely used command.

agumonkey 4y ago
it's known but not put forth as much as vim it seems. a case of subpar defaults in a way
susam 4y ago
I have been a user of Vim as well as Emacs. Vim's gf command and M-x ffap RET of Emacs were both known to me since my early days of using these editors.

chriswarbo 4y ago

My Emacs config replaces the default 'find-file' with the 'find-file-at-point' mentioned in the article, so the keybinding is just C-x C-f I also modify it slightly to look for line-numbers and column-numbers, so pressing C-x C-f when the cursor is on '/home/chriswarbo/foo.txt:135:23' will open that foo.txt file, then navigate to line 135 and column 23. This is especially useful when looking through compiler messages, etc. https://github.com/Warbo/warbo-emacs-d/blob/5e8b18dbae1767a9f8590c62e80637456827ee66/personal/generic.el#L217 https://github.com/Warbo/warbo-emacs-d/blob/5e8b18dbae1767a9...

vithlani 4y ago
[dead]
NoThisIsMe 4y ago
We do this in evil-mode too except it's bound to `g F`

jrootabega 4y ago

I believe that GNU Hyperbole (an Emacs package) is meant to comprehensively cover this approach: https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/ https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/

mik1998 4y ago

> The org-mode extension to emacs is popular in part because it lets you create and follow hyperlinks between files. Huh? I almost never use this feature. Mostly, I use org-mode for the markup, org-capture, org-agenda and org-export.

jolmg 4y ago
To be fair, it says "in part" and I'm sure different users use different subsets of features. For example, I've never used export, but do a lot of refiling and archiving, which you didn't mention.

djha-skin 4y ago

I have been able to kick org-mode using a few keybindings. I was even able to switch to Vim: https://blog.djha.skin/p/planning-and-notes-using-markdown-in-neovim/ https://blog.djha.skin/p/planning-and-notes-using-markdown-i...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

gpvos 4y ago

https://archive.is/dnheK https://archive.is/dnheK

kkfx 4y ago

I use org-mode, first because it's an outliner, secondly because at point I can do much more then links, I can also execute code, have personal link-types to do things, I can have attachments, query my notes with org-ql etc I've also tried Hyperbole but, no, org-mode is used because it do much more than anything else, and so Emacs as a whole vs gazillion of modern individual apps loosely connected by GUIs IPCs (copy&paste, drag&drop)...

wdkrnls 4y ago

I share the author's excitement for gemtext. It is a minimal format with a great accessibility story and I can expect it to still make sense in 10 years. Meanwhile org files quickly become dated as the format evolves and Emacs library becomes more bloated and convoluted. Instead of including tables, link to a CSV file. Keep things simple. Stop making documents for presentation. Accessibility is way more important.