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Is it that frequent though? Outside of a few famous examples, eg mussolini, I am not aware of there being significant number of fascist movements/leaders that

Is it that frequent though? Outside of a few famous examples, eg mussolini, I am not aware of there being significant number of fascist movements/leaders that started out as socialists, outside of the interwar period. > If you're taking issue with socialism being "pledged allegiance to greater good absolutely" (my words), then how would you characterize its primary beliefs? Wikipedia has a fair standard definition: > Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic and social systems, which are characterised by social ownership of the means of production, with an emphasis on democratic control, such as workers' self-management, as opposed to private ownership. “Pledged allegiance to the greater good” really only applies to socialist parties that seized power through violent revolution, which is self selecting in a sense. Most of Western Europe has long traditions of socialist parties that entered electoral politics and didn’t advocate Stalinist dictatorship. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

ethbr0 4y ago
The "greater good" in my point would be "social ownership of the means of production, with an emphasis on democratic control, such as workers' self-management" in the case of socialism. With adherent's agreement that that should be realized at any cost. It'd be a nuanced discussion to see how the trajectories of Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Burma, etc. didn't start with some variety of socialism, trend through communism, end up in de facto fascism, and then (mostly) relax back into state-directed capitalism.
- comte7092 4y ago
  > end up in de facto fascism I’m going to need to know what definition of fascism you’re using here.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    "[...] an authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."
    - comte7092 4y ago
      It is a stretch to call those states “de facto fascist” under that definition. Particularly under these points: > belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race It seems more so that you are reducing facism down to authoritarianism, and therefore authoritarian communist states share behaviors in common with authoritarian fascist states. However, the notion that authoritarianism resembles authoritarianism isn’t particularly notable.
      - ethbr0 4y ago
        At least Russia (Russian), China (Han), and Burma have looong had very serious racial superiority concepts encoded into their governments. North Korea and Juche are a bit of a weird case. And Cuba and Vietnam were very multi-ethnic or tolerant to start.
    - borroka 4y ago
      Strangely, "corporatism", a distinctive feature of Fascism, is not stated in that definition of Fascism.

ethbr0 4y ago

The "greater good" in my point would be "social ownership of the means of production, with an emphasis on democratic control, such as workers' self-management" in the case of socialism. With adherent's agreement that that should be realized at any cost. It'd be a nuanced discussion to see how the trajectories of Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Burma, etc. didn't start with some variety of socialism, trend through communism, end up in de facto fascism, and then (mostly) relax back into state-directed capitalism.

comte7092 4y ago
> end up in de facto fascism I’m going to need to know what definition of fascism you’re using here.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  "[...] an authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."
  - comte7092 4y ago
    It is a stretch to call those states “de facto fascist” under that definition. Particularly under these points: > belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race It seems more so that you are reducing facism down to authoritarianism, and therefore authoritarian communist states share behaviors in common with authoritarian fascist states. However, the notion that authoritarianism resembles authoritarianism isn’t particularly notable.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      At least Russia (Russian), China (Han), and Burma have looong had very serious racial superiority concepts encoded into their governments. North Korea and Juche are a bit of a weird case. And Cuba and Vietnam were very multi-ethnic or tolerant to start.
  - borroka 4y ago
    Strangely, "corporatism", a distinctive feature of Fascism, is not stated in that definition of Fascism.