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Your comment is mostly wrong. The terrorist "watch-list" is a database of people that the US government considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism. Whet

Your comment is mostly wrong. The terrorist "watch-list" is a database of people that the US government considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism. Whether you believe that is another story. The no-fly list is a subset of the terrorism watch list. Criminals, unruly passengers, and violent offenders are specifically NOT on the no-fly list unless they're also on the terrorism watch list[0]. Unruly passengers are sometimes added to a no-fly list for a specific airline, but there is no national no-fly list that private companies are eligible to add to[1], and despite being charged federally with a crime in the air, you are not eligible to be added to the no-fly list for that reason. [0] https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/tsc https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/tsc [1] https://news.delta.com/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-why-we-need-national-no-fly-list https://news.delta.com/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-why-we-need-nati...

jrochkind1 4y ago
The no-fly list is reported to have 1.5 million names on it. (the public didn't know how many names were on it until it was leaked). If this is a subset of the "terrorist watch-list", then that terrorist watch list must have even more names on it? I think you're implying many more? 5 million? 10 million? People that the US government "considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism," really? There are, what, a couple dozen acts of terrorism a year? (I don't know whether we're talking about in the US or globally or what). But millions of people the US government "reasonably" considers at risk to commit them? This seems... odd, no?
- simple-thoughts 4y ago
  Why would that be odd? It is perfectly consistent with the history of state actors generally and USG specifically.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    So at the link that ianhawes helpfully provided, the US government describes the terrorist watch list as "[having] information on people reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism (or related activities)." I don't think we knew how many people were on it before. But if it's a strict superset of the no-fly list, then we now know it's at least 1.5 million people. I guess the only odd thing is that a lot of people seem to believe the USA government's line that more than 1.5 million people are "reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism or related activities", when there are maybe a few dozen terrorist attacks a year. ("reasonably"! "related activities" huh?).
- themoonisachees 4y ago
  Anecdote: my father (swiss as long as the family tree goes back) lived in Lebanon for a year in his teens, accompanying my grandma who was a translator. When my brother came to the US to become a cook there, he was turned away at the airport (and subsequently had to buy a return ticket) and that was the stated reason. Its really not that hard to imagine the US gov. adding every person from the middle east that has ever flown in a plane to that list.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  From snowden's leak I think, we know that the NSA does have "lists" that you get catalogued into through various actions. One example was that anyone who had visited the Tor website (like the place to download the Tor browser) was on a list. IE, most tech professionals are likely on many lists. It's likely (though conjecture) the "lists" you are on, really the buckets you are in, are used as an input to some sort of "is a terrorist" qualifier, which sorts certain people into a priority queue to be tasked to other NSA agents to look into your details and pass you off to someone else if you seem sus, basically like companies that sell credit card fraud prevention. Or you know, some sort of score that represents your social, let's call it "credit". Except you aren't allowed to request this score once a year.
jrochkind1 4y ago
The fbi.gov page you helpfully link to (thanks!) actually says: > In fact, the vast majority of people who have disputed travel and appeal to the Department of Homeland Security’s Traveler Redress Inquiry Program are not on the terrorist watchlist. > Most people on the terrorist watchlist are still able to fly within the U.S. A very small subset of people on this list are on the “No Fly” list. Wow, so 1.5 million on the no fly list are a "very small subset" of (also from that page) "people reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism (or related activities)", who have met "specific intelligence-related criteria", and which "Internal and external auditors regularly review... to ensure all laws and policies are being followed and that the information on the watchlist is accurate." If 1.5 million people is a "very small subset", the whole list is... 10 million? 50 million? 100 million? Something definitely ain't right. I wonder if this clue as to the size of these lists can help organize some opposition, because it seems to indicate things are not what they say.

jrochkind1 4y ago

The no-fly list is reported to have 1.5 million names on it. (the public didn't know how many names were on it until it was leaked). If this is a subset of the "terrorist watch-list", then that terrorist watch list must have even more names on it? I think you're implying many more? 5 million? 10 million? People that the US government "considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism," really? There are, what, a couple dozen acts of terrorism a year? (I don't know whether we're talking about in the US or globally or what). But millions of people the US government "reasonably" considers at risk to commit them? This seems... odd, no?

simple-thoughts 4y ago
Why would that be odd? It is perfectly consistent with the history of state actors generally and USG specifically.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  So at the link that ianhawes helpfully provided, the US government describes the terrorist watch list as "[having] information on people reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism (or related activities)." I don't think we knew how many people were on it before. But if it's a strict superset of the no-fly list, then we now know it's at least 1.5 million people. I guess the only odd thing is that a lot of people seem to believe the USA government's line that more than 1.5 million people are "reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism or related activities", when there are maybe a few dozen terrorist attacks a year. ("reasonably"! "related activities" huh?).
themoonisachees 4y ago
Anecdote: my father (swiss as long as the family tree goes back) lived in Lebanon for a year in his teens, accompanying my grandma who was a translator. When my brother came to the US to become a cook there, he was turned away at the airport (and subsequently had to buy a return ticket) and that was the stated reason. Its really not that hard to imagine the US gov. adding every person from the middle east that has ever flown in a plane to that list.
mrguyorama 4y ago
From snowden's leak I think, we know that the NSA does have "lists" that you get catalogued into through various actions. One example was that anyone who had visited the Tor website (like the place to download the Tor browser) was on a list. IE, most tech professionals are likely on many lists. It's likely (though conjecture) the "lists" you are on, really the buckets you are in, are used as an input to some sort of "is a terrorist" qualifier, which sorts certain people into a priority queue to be tasked to other NSA agents to look into your details and pass you off to someone else if you seem sus, basically like companies that sell credit card fraud prevention. Or you know, some sort of score that represents your social, let's call it "credit". Except you aren't allowed to request this score once a year.

jrochkind1 4y ago

The fbi.gov page you helpfully link to (thanks!) actually says: > In fact, the vast majority of people who have disputed travel and appeal to the Department of Homeland Security’s Traveler Redress Inquiry Program are not on the terrorist watchlist. > Most people on the terrorist watchlist are still able to fly within the U.S. A very small subset of people on this list are on the “No Fly” list. Wow, so 1.5 million on the no fly list are a "very small subset" of (also from that page) "people reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism (or related activities)", who have met "specific intelligence-related criteria", and which "Internal and external auditors regularly review... to ensure all laws and policies are being followed and that the information on the watchlist is accurate." If 1.5 million people is a "very small subset", the whole list is... 10 million? 50 million? 100 million? Something definitely ain't right. I wonder if this clue as to the size of these lists can help organize some opposition, because it seems to indicate things are not what they say.