6 ms·

Nothing to do with cheap money, tech companies are some of the most profitable and revenue efficient companies in history.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
I don't think unions bring anything to the table for Tech workers that can't be done without one. Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  > Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union. No need for sick time, huh. Mat leave, pat leave. Generally US worker protections are some of the weakest in the developed world. So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. A lot of those protections you allude to were actually obtained because of unions. The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies. >So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union. >The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. When was the last time US programmers were locked in an office? I have never heard of this as a big issue.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      > We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies. We were talking universal protections. I said they don't exist. It's disingenuous to then pivot back to not just tech, but specifically big tech. Plenty of smaller companies have less generous policies. This isn't the case in places that have the universal protections of which you spoke. Although on second reading you may have been referring to individuals striking only. Universal protections around striking specifically are pretty dismal, with extremely limited enforcement in the US. Also, what good is a strike without organization? You gonna get three people outside holding up a sign? Strikes only work if you get enough people doing it. > Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union. Correct, but workers are the beneficiaries of policies that were brought in thanks to predecessor unions and the organized labor movement. This is like saying that we don't need the EPA anymore because the Cuyahoga hasn't caught fire in a while. > When was the last time US programmers were locked in an office? I have never heard of this as a big issue. You can thank a union for that. Feel free to read the wikipedia article I linked you in my original reply and circle back. Specifically the 'consequences and legacy' section. The history of worker rights everywhere (and the US is no exception) was written in blood.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      Recently it’s been more about U.S. programmers locked out of their offices.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Those worker protections are good, but could be better or modernized. The part that kills me is how differently people get treated. Employees of similar skills/output/etc can be treated entirely differently. There's no transparency in ratings and performance reviews. I've seen my company violate its policies multiple times to screw people over, including myself. A real contract, with or without a union, would be a huge step.
tukantje 4y ago
For the love of lord please keep saying this. Because it is true. And because I am sick and tired of this self hate of "inflated salaries". Jesus, we are working in one of the most profitable industries, whatever we build tends to be a long term force multiplier, and somehow a large portion of the sector thinks our earnings are inflated. The earnings of a hedge fund manager who makes 1.5 million pounds a day is inflated. Not a software engineer living a decidedly middle class life.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  I think folks really lose perspective. Apple has a revenue per employee of $2,375,435 and that includes the janitorial staff. [1] [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/217489/revenue-per-employee-of-selected-tech-companies/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/217489/revenue-per-emplo...
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Seems to be a paywall. What is the profit per employee, before and after employee costs?
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Apple's gross profit margin is 40% and net is 23%. OpEx accounts for a surprisingly small amount, actually. Here's a nifty visualization. [1] [1] https://i.redd.it/jg6t8xm07sn91.png https://i.redd.it/jg6t8xm07sn91.png
      - giantg2 4y ago
        That's nice, but I just realized something. Aren't they a tech company that isn't doing layoffs? From the stuff I'm reading, the layoffs that are happening are mostly cutting unprofitable programs, or unnecessary support staff. And in very small numbers (5% or less). At this point, I'm not sure what we're really discussing since this started out as talking about how above average tech salaries are at these top-tier companies, both in terms of the industry and in general. My only point was that I don't think unionizing would be beneficial to increasing tech salary or to preventing there layoffs. Where they would be useful is more consistent treatment of employees and adherence to their own policies.
mypastself 4y ago
A lot of them are now back to their early-2020 headcounts. Did they hire just so they could fire those same workers a couple of years later and thus “bring them to heel”, or did they overextend themselves by all the easy credit, and are now reversing course?
andsoitis 4y ago
And software engineers, even entry level, are some of the most highly paid workers on the planet.
- freedom2099 4y ago
  It really depends where… in Europe we have good salaries but not crazy stuff like in the US
- sdiupIGPWEfh 4y ago
  In some areas. Salaries are still pretty middle class here on the east coast of the US, I have to say.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    It's mostly the higher paying companies doing the layoffs. It's also about perspective. I'm below the median for a US dev, but even so, I'm above the median in general. We have to use the Area Median Income (AMI) for a specific locale. Middle class goes up to 2x the AMI. On much of the east coast, it's about $140k per household. It's very easy to exceed this if married with both spouses working and one being in tech.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

I don't think unions bring anything to the table for Tech workers that can't be done without one. Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union.

arcticbull 4y ago
> Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union. No need for sick time, huh. Mat leave, pat leave. Generally US worker protections are some of the weakest in the developed world. So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. A lot of those protections you allude to were actually obtained because of unions. The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies. >So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union. >The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. When was the last time US programmers were locked in an office? I have never heard of this as a big issue.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    > We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies. We were talking universal protections. I said they don't exist. It's disingenuous to then pivot back to not just tech, but specifically big tech. Plenty of smaller companies have less generous policies. This isn't the case in places that have the universal protections of which you spoke. Although on second reading you may have been referring to individuals striking only. Universal protections around striking specifically are pretty dismal, with extremely limited enforcement in the US. Also, what good is a strike without organization? You gonna get three people outside holding up a sign? Strikes only work if you get enough people doing it. > Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union. Correct, but workers are the beneficiaries of policies that were brought in thanks to predecessor unions and the organized labor movement. This is like saying that we don't need the EPA anymore because the Cuyahoga hasn't caught fire in a while. > When was the last time US programmers were locked in an office? I have never heard of this as a big issue. You can thank a union for that. Feel free to read the wikipedia article I linked you in my original reply and circle back. Specifically the 'consequences and legacy' section. The history of worker rights everywhere (and the US is no exception) was written in blood.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Recently it’s been more about U.S. programmers locked out of their offices.
giantg2 4y ago
Those worker protections are good, but could be better or modernized. The part that kills me is how differently people get treated. Employees of similar skills/output/etc can be treated entirely differently. There's no transparency in ratings and performance reviews. I've seen my company violate its policies multiple times to screw people over, including myself. A real contract, with or without a union, would be a huge step.

tukantje 4y ago

For the love of lord please keep saying this. Because it is true. And because I am sick and tired of this self hate of "inflated salaries". Jesus, we are working in one of the most profitable industries, whatever we build tends to be a long term force multiplier, and somehow a large portion of the sector thinks our earnings are inflated. The earnings of a hedge fund manager who makes 1.5 million pounds a day is inflated. Not a software engineer living a decidedly middle class life.

arcticbull 4y ago
I think folks really lose perspective. Apple has a revenue per employee of $2,375,435 and that includes the janitorial staff. [1] [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/217489/revenue-per-employee-of-selected-tech-companies/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/217489/revenue-per-emplo...
- giantg2 4y ago
  Seems to be a paywall. What is the profit per employee, before and after employee costs?
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Apple's gross profit margin is 40% and net is 23%. OpEx accounts for a surprisingly small amount, actually. Here's a nifty visualization. [1] [1] https://i.redd.it/jg6t8xm07sn91.png https://i.redd.it/jg6t8xm07sn91.png
    - giantg2 4y ago
      That's nice, but I just realized something. Aren't they a tech company that isn't doing layoffs? From the stuff I'm reading, the layoffs that are happening are mostly cutting unprofitable programs, or unnecessary support staff. And in very small numbers (5% or less). At this point, I'm not sure what we're really discussing since this started out as talking about how above average tech salaries are at these top-tier companies, both in terms of the industry and in general. My only point was that I don't think unionizing would be beneficial to increasing tech salary or to preventing there layoffs. Where they would be useful is more consistent treatment of employees and adherence to their own policies.

mypastself 4y ago

A lot of them are now back to their early-2020 headcounts. Did they hire just so they could fire those same workers a couple of years later and thus “bring them to heel”, or did they overextend themselves by all the easy credit, and are now reversing course?

andsoitis 4y ago

And software engineers, even entry level, are some of the most highly paid workers on the planet.

freedom2099 4y ago
It really depends where… in Europe we have good salaries but not crazy stuff like in the US
sdiupIGPWEfh 4y ago
In some areas. Salaries are still pretty middle class here on the east coast of the US, I have to say.
- giantg2 4y ago
  It's mostly the higher paying companies doing the layoffs. It's also about perspective. I'm below the median for a US dev, but even so, I'm above the median in general. We have to use the Area Median Income (AMI) for a specific locale. Middle class goes up to 2x the AMI. On much of the east coast, it's about $140k per household. It's very easy to exceed this if married with both spouses working and one being in tech.