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"There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sor

"There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship–be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles–is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It’s the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It’s been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness." - DFW Academic science resembles religion with its dogmas, nepotism, bureaucracies, and favor-currying shibboleths. Deep learning in particular is akin to modern alchemy [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7psGHgatGM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7psGHgatGM

rubicon33 4y ago
Everyone is always quick to tell you why you need to be religious, and I don’t even disagree with most of the reasons. What’s frustrating is nobody tells you how to reverse a life of agnosticism bordering on atheism, and suddenly be catholic,Buddhist,etc
- DoingSomeThings 4y ago
  Further. Religion requires something to assent and belong to. That will always be a choice to some degree. As someone who is formerly deeply Christian and left for intellectual/theological reasons. I miss the communal binding of organized worship. But reversing or getting back to that place requires either 1) letting go of intellectual integrity, or 2) finding a group who is similarly interested in dispassionate community organizing without supernatural theology. The 1st has proven personally impossible. The 2nd seems very unlikely. All the attempts of secular church I have seen never pick up steam and trail off over time. Thus, the person who sees religious association as a broad good is left without a natural landing spot.
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    // But reversing or getting back to that place requires either 1) letting go of intellectual integrity I love how you crystalized the point although I've reached a different conclusion. This was actually my original "before" state - I assumed that religion was an illogical holdover and not something that I ( a logical / scientist ) person can internalize. But over time, I connected with people who are very smart and very logical and whose faith is deepened by this (though to be clear, faith is still faith - even if you believe in the absence of a deity that's still a belief) So I am very happy that I am at a place where I can grow my religious and faithful over time while being logically and internally consistent. I appreciate that this is something that matters to you and perhaps something you could enjoy is to connect with someone whom you respect as an intellectual who is also religious, and see how they make sense of it.
    - rubicon33 4y ago
      "...where I can grow my religious and faithful over time while being logically and internally consistent." But... HOW? I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious. So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it.
      - thefaux 4y ago
        > I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious. But you may well know people who are intellectual, scientifically minded and closeted religious. As this thread can attest, there is rampant discrimination against religious experience and thought in the science/tech community. > So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it. I believe that most deep religious experiences are things that happen to you, not things that you actively plan for. But having said that, I believe that the key in general is humility. So many people in this thread (and others on HN) have displayed incredible arrogance that is an effective protective barrier from having a religious experience. This is very much their loss. We all end up humbled eventually though. No matter how you feel about religion in the 21st century, we would not have a civilization were it not for religion. When you dig deep enough, you will generally find that the seed of the society came from a visionary mystic. Even Genghis Khan was a shaman as much as he was a warrior. Empirical science is neither the beginning nor the end, though it is an extraordinarily powerful tool. The rules of empirical science are bounded in such a way that it is essentially impossible to talk scientifically about some of the most important aspects of being human. Funnily enough, scientists engage just as much as religious people in mysticism when they throw up their hands and describe consciousness as an "emergent" phenomenon. Religious texts are deeply fascinating if you allow them to be. Think of them as founding civilizational documents like a constitution. All of us live in cultures that descend from these (relatively) ancient texts. You would not be here if it weren't for these past religious traditions. That doesn't mean that we should blindly follow religious leaders or accept everything that we read in these texts. But we should at least have some curiosity about how we got here and ask what relevant wisdom might still be there for us in these texts. That is a far more scientific approach than casually dismissing religion as nonsense.
- svieira 4y ago
  "Suddenly" can only happen with grace. One day at a time, one moment at a time, searching for Him until He calls "Zacchaeus come down" (Luke 19:1-10) is the only way we can dispose ourselves for that moment.
- psychomugs 4y ago
  It sounds similar to the hypothetical what-happens-the-day-after-capitalism; those who want - or at least don't not want - struggle to think of the pragmatics of what it looks like. I wouldn't say I'm a born-again-whatever - I usually describe myself as an optimistic spiritual agnostic - but I think a combination of broadening my horizons physically (geographically moving around) and mentally (actually paying attention in grad school to the liberal arts that I thumbed my nose at as an undergrad) and getting hit repeatedly with how little I/we actually know about anything has let me inch away from the cynical a(nti)religiosity and submit to something larger than me. This has also given me a better appreciation of the books I (was supposed to have) read in high school; in hindsight, I don't think there's any way many students could draw much meaning from them without having their own life experiences.
- hooverd 4y ago
  I prefer the Buddhist interpretation of the afterlife to the Catholic one. Hell is temporary vs eternal, and contingent on not being a monstrous asshole, not your relationship with god.
  - svieira 4y ago
    Speaking as a Catholic, the eternity of hell is based on your willingness to be a monster rather than serve the one who is the source of all good. Which is as horrible an opinion as one could have.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  This is a great point and as someone who has grown from a total atheist to the person that kicked off this thread, I can relate. I don't think there's a simple answer on how to flip that light switch but I can share some ideas. First, do you have religious people in your life whom you respect even if you don't share their faith. Ask them about it - you can literally say "I don't get it at all but I am curious, what's this like for you?" And just see what resonates. Second, that is a question you can direct to a member of clergy. If you can't envision yourself walking into a house of worship, shoot an email and be like "I am faithless but curious. I am sure I am not the first one..." Third, be really for hits and misses. Not every religious person can articulate it in a way that will make sense to you, and not every clergy person can speak to it effectively either (some people can only preach to the converted, to borrow a phrase.) But if you ping a few people, some of them may give you something that's a good thread to follow. Fourth, I suggest starting with whatever faith your family was historically in. There's something cool about that. Fifth, if really nothing else - shoot me a way to contact you and we can chat about my experience.

rubicon33 4y ago

Everyone is always quick to tell you why you need to be religious, and I don’t even disagree with most of the reasons. What’s frustrating is nobody tells you how to reverse a life of agnosticism bordering on atheism, and suddenly be catholic,Buddhist,etc

DoingSomeThings 4y ago
Further. Religion requires something to assent and belong to. That will always be a choice to some degree. As someone who is formerly deeply Christian and left for intellectual/theological reasons. I miss the communal binding of organized worship. But reversing or getting back to that place requires either 1) letting go of intellectual integrity, or 2) finding a group who is similarly interested in dispassionate community organizing without supernatural theology. The 1st has proven personally impossible. The 2nd seems very unlikely. All the attempts of secular church I have seen never pick up steam and trail off over time. Thus, the person who sees religious association as a broad good is left without a natural landing spot.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  // But reversing or getting back to that place requires either 1) letting go of intellectual integrity I love how you crystalized the point although I've reached a different conclusion. This was actually my original "before" state - I assumed that religion was an illogical holdover and not something that I ( a logical / scientist ) person can internalize. But over time, I connected with people who are very smart and very logical and whose faith is deepened by this (though to be clear, faith is still faith - even if you believe in the absence of a deity that's still a belief) So I am very happy that I am at a place where I can grow my religious and faithful over time while being logically and internally consistent. I appreciate that this is something that matters to you and perhaps something you could enjoy is to connect with someone whom you respect as an intellectual who is also religious, and see how they make sense of it.
  - rubicon33 4y ago
    "...where I can grow my religious and faithful over time while being logically and internally consistent." But... HOW? I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious. So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it.
    - thefaux 4y ago
      > I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious. But you may well know people who are intellectual, scientifically minded and closeted religious. As this thread can attest, there is rampant discrimination against religious experience and thought in the science/tech community. > So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it. I believe that most deep religious experiences are things that happen to you, not things that you actively plan for. But having said that, I believe that the key in general is humility. So many people in this thread (and others on HN) have displayed incredible arrogance that is an effective protective barrier from having a religious experience. This is very much their loss. We all end up humbled eventually though. No matter how you feel about religion in the 21st century, we would not have a civilization were it not for religion. When you dig deep enough, you will generally find that the seed of the society came from a visionary mystic. Even Genghis Khan was a shaman as much as he was a warrior. Empirical science is neither the beginning nor the end, though it is an extraordinarily powerful tool. The rules of empirical science are bounded in such a way that it is essentially impossible to talk scientifically about some of the most important aspects of being human. Funnily enough, scientists engage just as much as religious people in mysticism when they throw up their hands and describe consciousness as an "emergent" phenomenon. Religious texts are deeply fascinating if you allow them to be. Think of them as founding civilizational documents like a constitution. All of us live in cultures that descend from these (relatively) ancient texts. You would not be here if it weren't for these past religious traditions. That doesn't mean that we should blindly follow religious leaders or accept everything that we read in these texts. But we should at least have some curiosity about how we got here and ask what relevant wisdom might still be there for us in these texts. That is a far more scientific approach than casually dismissing religion as nonsense.
svieira 4y ago
"Suddenly" can only happen with grace. One day at a time, one moment at a time, searching for Him until He calls "Zacchaeus come down" (Luke 19:1-10) is the only way we can dispose ourselves for that moment.
psychomugs 4y ago
It sounds similar to the hypothetical what-happens-the-day-after-capitalism; those who want - or at least don't not want - struggle to think of the pragmatics of what it looks like. I wouldn't say I'm a born-again-whatever - I usually describe myself as an optimistic spiritual agnostic - but I think a combination of broadening my horizons physically (geographically moving around) and mentally (actually paying attention in grad school to the liberal arts that I thumbed my nose at as an undergrad) and getting hit repeatedly with how little I/we actually know about anything has let me inch away from the cynical a(nti)religiosity and submit to something larger than me. This has also given me a better appreciation of the books I (was supposed to have) read in high school; in hindsight, I don't think there's any way many students could draw much meaning from them without having their own life experiences.
hooverd 4y ago
I prefer the Buddhist interpretation of the afterlife to the Catholic one. Hell is temporary vs eternal, and contingent on not being a monstrous asshole, not your relationship with god.
- svieira 4y ago
  Speaking as a Catholic, the eternity of hell is based on your willingness to be a monster rather than serve the one who is the source of all good. Which is as horrible an opinion as one could have.
xyzelement 4y ago
This is a great point and as someone who has grown from a total atheist to the person that kicked off this thread, I can relate. I don't think there's a simple answer on how to flip that light switch but I can share some ideas. First, do you have religious people in your life whom you respect even if you don't share their faith. Ask them about it - you can literally say "I don't get it at all but I am curious, what's this like for you?" And just see what resonates. Second, that is a question you can direct to a member of clergy. If you can't envision yourself walking into a house of worship, shoot an email and be like "I am faithless but curious. I am sure I am not the first one..." Third, be really for hits and misses. Not every religious person can articulate it in a way that will make sense to you, and not every clergy person can speak to it effectively either (some people can only preach to the converted, to borrow a phrase.) But if you ping a few people, some of them may give you something that's a good thread to follow. Fourth, I suggest starting with whatever faith your family was historically in. There's something cool about that. Fifth, if really nothing else - shoot me a way to contact you and we can chat about my experience.