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Can anyone name a movie that was really good and really popular that diverged from this model heavily. By really popular I mean pretty much universally popular

Can anyone name a movie that was really good and really popular that diverged from this model heavily. By really popular I mean pretty much universally popular. Not niche popular.

swatcoder 4y ago
One of the reasons models like this feel universal is because they have a lot of wiggle room in how you interpret what they mean. So some movies fit them very plainly and other movies fit them only after somebody pulls a “well, actually” and makes an unobvious interpretation of who the story was really about, or what they wanted, or where they started, or where they ended. The easiest starting points to look for the “hard fits” are in any tragedy (which aren’t very popular in the US recently), any movie that’s in the middle of a trilogy, and some absurdist/surrealist comedies that happened to win success on humor or novelty rather than structure. But someone committed to the universality of this model can always make a case that those movies fit too. It’s just a more strained argument than in some others.
- rtpg 4y ago
  It's kind of funny because we already have a great storytelling model that does fit almost all of these (including lots of the more absurdist stuff), that is in 8-ish points: the 3-act structure!
  - number6 4y ago
    Act 1 is usually Point 1 - 3; Act 3 is 5 - You can Map the 3 Act structure to the 8 Points. Act 1: 1-3; Act 2: 4-6; Act 3: 7 - 8.
    - rtpg 4y ago
      I think that that's saying that these 8 points are an instance of the 3 act structure but loads of stories match the 3 act structure without matching this.
iopq 4y ago
Memento While the end of the movie is the protagonist ends up in the same situation, having changed nothing and it's basically a bad end
defen 4y ago
There Will Be Blood
- roydivision 4y ago
  Great call. I love this film for the ways in which it avoids a lot of the common structures and conventions.
dilyevsky 4y ago
All of Tarantino films?
tsimionescu 4y ago
Pretty much any movie with a larger cast will typically only follow some version of this pattern for one character. For example, in Lord of the Rings, only Frodo fits this trope decently (and even for him, I would argue it fits quite poorly, especially since the "loses something important" step happens at the very end of the story). But Aragorn, Sam, Legolas, Merry and Pippin - their own journeys diverge quite a bit. Or, look at The Avengers - how does this apply to The Hulk,for example?
Beldin 4y ago
Plenty of movies start out not so much with the protagonist in a zone of comfort wanting something, but being forced into something. E.g. Iron Man 1: that cave was not a zone of comfort. You might argue that this structure applies e.g. to Avengers: Endgame, if you'd call "dealing with half of sentient life obliterated due to your failure to prevent it" a place of comfort. But frankly, I think for most of the MCU, the stories are not due to a comfortable character wanting something more. So, to answer your question: basically all movies in the most successful franchise ever diverge significantly from this formula. As does any other movie where the antagonist drives the plot significantly.
labster 4y ago
I think as a whole the mystery genre doesn’t use this model. So, say, Glass Onion right now. There’s a different but similar model for the whodunnit. There are other movies that play with the model, like The Big Lebowski, in that it skips a lot of the character development on purpose. Things may try to move his world, but The Dude abides.
- coremoff 4y ago
  I agree; was going to provide Glass Onion as an example. I think also the Horror genre often ignores or subverts the Hero's Journey.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rtpg 4y ago
Inception and Tenet both do not follow this (you can try and stretch Cobb's narrative _a bit_ there but "in familiar situation and now not" is definitely not the thing). Harry Potter is not this. Despite what you might think, I think most Marvel movies don't really follow this! Sometimes a single character follows this and they end up being the tragic character. Not a movie but I think we get to Romeo & Julliet and this doesn't work. Jurassic Park is not this. Terminator is not this. The Terminal is not this. Avatar _is_ this I think! Kind of.
- iopq 4y ago
  Harry Potter overall starts with a character who has a mortal enemy and he has to overcome obstacles to finally defeat him in the end It's basically hero's journey
123pie123 4y ago
Fight Club
bccdee 4y ago
Memento [1] is a pretty famous example of a movie which defies basically all structural prescriptions except for the basic flow of tension and resolution innate to all narratives. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_(film)

Can anyone name a movie that was really good and really popular that diverged from this model heavily. By really popular I mean pretty much universally popular. Not niche popular.

swatcoder 4y ago

One of the reasons models like this feel universal is because they have a lot of wiggle room in how you interpret what they mean. So some movies fit them very plainly and other movies fit them only after somebody pulls a “well, actually” and makes an unobvious interpretation of who the story was really about, or what they wanted, or where they started, or where they ended. The easiest starting points to look for the “hard fits” are in any tragedy (which aren’t very popular in the US recently), any movie that’s in the middle of a trilogy, and some absurdist/surrealist comedies that happened to win success on humor or novelty rather than structure. But someone committed to the universality of this model can always make a case that those movies fit too. It’s just a more strained argument than in some others.

rtpg 4y ago
It's kind of funny because we already have a great storytelling model that does fit almost all of these (including lots of the more absurdist stuff), that is in 8-ish points: the 3-act structure!
- number6 4y ago
  Act 1 is usually Point 1 - 3; Act 3 is 5 - You can Map the 3 Act structure to the 8 Points. Act 1: 1-3; Act 2: 4-6; Act 3: 7 - 8.
  - rtpg 4y ago
    I think that that's saying that these 8 points are an instance of the 3 act structure but loads of stories match the 3 act structure without matching this.

iopq 4y ago

Memento While the end of the movie is the protagonist ends up in the same situation, having changed nothing and it's basically a bad end

defen 4y ago

There Will Be Blood

roydivision 4y ago
Great call. I love this film for the ways in which it avoids a lot of the common structures and conventions.

dilyevsky 4y ago

All of Tarantino films?

tsimionescu 4y ago

Pretty much any movie with a larger cast will typically only follow some version of this pattern for one character. For example, in Lord of the Rings, only Frodo fits this trope decently (and even for him, I would argue it fits quite poorly, especially since the "loses something important" step happens at the very end of the story). But Aragorn, Sam, Legolas, Merry and Pippin - their own journeys diverge quite a bit. Or, look at The Avengers - how does this apply to The Hulk,for example?

Beldin 4y ago

Plenty of movies start out not so much with the protagonist in a zone of comfort wanting something, but being forced into something. E.g. Iron Man 1: that cave was not a zone of comfort. You might argue that this structure applies e.g. to Avengers: Endgame, if you'd call "dealing with half of sentient life obliterated due to your failure to prevent it" a place of comfort. But frankly, I think for most of the MCU, the stories are not due to a comfortable character wanting something more. So, to answer your question: basically all movies in the most successful franchise ever diverge significantly from this formula. As does any other movie where the antagonist drives the plot significantly.

labster 4y ago

I think as a whole the mystery genre doesn’t use this model. So, say, Glass Onion right now. There’s a different but similar model for the whodunnit. There are other movies that play with the model, like The Big Lebowski, in that it skips a lot of the character development on purpose. Things may try to move his world, but The Dude abides.

coremoff 4y ago
I agree; was going to provide Glass Onion as an example. I think also the Horror genre often ignores or subverts the Hero's Journey.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rtpg 4y ago

Inception and Tenet both do not follow this (you can try and stretch Cobb's narrative _a bit_ there but "in familiar situation and now not" is definitely not the thing). Harry Potter is not this. Despite what you might think, I think most Marvel movies don't really follow this! Sometimes a single character follows this and they end up being the tragic character. Not a movie but I think we get to Romeo & Julliet and this doesn't work. Jurassic Park is not this. Terminator is not this. The Terminal is not this. Avatar _is_ this I think! Kind of.

iopq 4y ago
Harry Potter overall starts with a character who has a mortal enemy and he has to overcome obstacles to finally defeat him in the end It's basically hero's journey

123pie123 4y ago

Fight Club

bccdee 4y ago

Memento [1] is a pretty famous example of a movie which defies basically all structural prescriptions except for the basic flow of tension and resolution innate to all narratives. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_(film)