4 ms·

This demand that people write tons and tons of code on our off hours is understandable but is getting, I dunno, obnoxious? If not tons, then perhaps something o

by sown 15y ago

This demand that people write tons and tons of code on our off hours is understandable but is getting, I dunno, obnoxious? If not tons, then perhaps something of very high quality. I could write a nifty little linked list implementation but would it really show that I'd be a good programmer for your particular needs? If you think it does, I predict having code written in off hours is a requirement will result in github being flooded with just horrible code. It's hard to evaluate code in a quick glance. Let's keep it as a bonus type thing so the pressure won't be so high to produce just anything, to torture a text editor until it gives something that pleases the eye and sleights the mind. Please, keep the industry from moving to make this sort of thing a requirement. I write crappy code in my spare time for fun not because I think it'll get me hired. ---- Not everyone can write code for 50 hours a week and then 10+ more at home, especially if they have outside interests, a family or are just plain tired of it. Writing code in spare hours is neat, and I do it myself, but I think it needs to be seen as a bonus, not as a requirement. Perhaps employers are wanting to hire burn-out proof people. I don't think there are enough programmers on the planet to meet employer's demands to hire the best. The implication of wanting 'the best' and asking for code in off hours is that if you don't write code in off hours, you are not the best and not worthy. It's thinly veiled and having been through a few interviews (sometimes I showed them code I had written in off hours, sometimes not) recently, my experiences are probably anecdotal but it makes me wonder.

hello_moto 15y ago
I like your opinion (probably because I'm biased of this trend as well). Unfortunately, we live in the world where people eat people. For those who have large number of repos and code written in GitHub, they would rejoice when they see this. Just like Haskell people would feel excited when they see the number of jobs for Haskell programmers out there cannot be met with the supply. These people will push this idea forward because it is for their best interest (only a few who would keep the purity of the community). At the end of the day, we're all human beings so we have greeds and egos. We want to have high salary or challenging work or the best work place/culture/free-food and we work to achieve that. Part of the work is to have GitHub repos apparently (used to be StackOverflow karma). Some hackers dislike the notion of getting interesting jobs/deals because of your rolodex because that would suggest sales/marketing/licking butt mentality. They also dislike it because communication (with real people, not over the internet) is not their strongest suit. For those who disagree with this wave/bubble, we should create our own. We should push our own ideology. We should figure out how not to be attracted with this wave/bubble. ... or we can stand up and be an entrepreneur (one option, not the only option) and say to hell with this job-seeker mob-mentality?
- cydonian_monk 15y ago
  Exactly. All of it. If you don't like it, fix it. If you can't fix it, replace it (or ignore it). Just because some companies only want to hire people that write code 24/7 doesn't mean all companies have to. And there are some of us that work in closed-source or secure code that simply don't have a public codebase. And an occasional few that are contractually prohibited from writing public code in their "off" time. (Does having a large codebase freely available make evaluating a potential hire easier? No doubt. I'm not questioning that.) I'm a programmer by trade but a hardware guy by birth and education. I don't do endless amounts of coding in my off-time, but instead build things. When it comes time for me to move on, if /everybody/ I talk to requires a large open-source codebase for me to even sit in the same room as them - I won't care. I'll find some like-minded folk and create my own job.
- oconnor0 15y ago
  > Unfortunately, we live in the world where people eat people. I'd be up for changing the world so people stop eating each other.
mcginniwa 15y ago
You are operating under a false assumption. That is that all public repositories (i.e. Open Source) are filled with work by unpaid volunteers. That is simply not the case for a large portion of Open Source projects (and therefore public GitHub repositories). I've been an Open Source contributor for more than a decade. I would say 90% of my open source contributions have been work where I'm extending or improving an Open Source project's code to suit a paying client's needs.
- sown 15y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean. I am aware that not all open source is written by unpaid volunteers but that doesn't address my central point. If the industry demands that everyone write code, be it OSS, personal or just random junk code because they HAVE to, then github/bitbucket/launchpad/sourceforge/etc plus individual portfolios will see an inflation of sorts in code written, some of it good, most of it bad or mediocre. Let's just keep off-hours code as a bonus and not hold it against someone if it is not there. Keep fun-coding for fun! :D Wouldn't you rather have people contribute to an OSS project because they want to, not because they feel compelled to?
  - lutorm 15y ago
    I'm not entirely disagreeing with your argument, but isn't it kind of like saying "if the industry demands that people write job applications to get a job, they will be flooded with bad applications"? While that's true, it doesn't change the fact that you need data to evaluate applicants on. I don't see how people will think that writing crap code will improve their chances. Besides, there is absolutely no difference between "counting something as a bonus" and "not holding it against someone". Hiring is a zero-sum game, your advantage is necessarily the others' disadvantage.
resnamen 15y ago
I'm not even allowed to write code off hours! All my code is belong to my employer. Am I a bad hire?
- danielharan 15y ago
  No, you're working at a bad company.
  - sanderjd 15y ago
    You absolutely do not have enough context to make that judgement. I doubt his company is curing cancer or colonizing mars, but do you really think poor intellectual property assignment policies alone make any company, bad? It is one of many, many axes and it doesn't override everything else.
- danssig 15y ago
  If your company is dictating what you do when you're not working you either need to find out if those clauses are even binding (probably not) or just find a modern place to work. If they really control what you do when you're not on the clock then explain to me how you're not a slave. The worst part about this is, if companies are allowed to do this they can ensure that some people must continue working for a living instead of becoming financially independent through their own talent.

by sown 15y ago

hello_moto 15y ago

I like your opinion (probably because I'm biased of this trend as well). Unfortunately, we live in the world where people eat people. For those who have large number of repos and code written in GitHub, they would rejoice when they see this. Just like Haskell people would feel excited when they see the number of jobs for Haskell programmers out there cannot be met with the supply. These people will push this idea forward because it is for their best interest (only a few who would keep the purity of the community). At the end of the day, we're all human beings so we have greeds and egos. We want to have high salary or challenging work or the best work place/culture/free-food and we work to achieve that. Part of the work is to have GitHub repos apparently (used to be StackOverflow karma). Some hackers dislike the notion of getting interesting jobs/deals because of your rolodex because that would suggest sales/marketing/licking butt mentality. They also dislike it because communication (with real people, not over the internet) is not their strongest suit. For those who disagree with this wave/bubble, we should create our own. We should push our own ideology. We should figure out how not to be attracted with this wave/bubble. ... or we can stand up and be an entrepreneur (one option, not the only option) and say to hell with this job-seeker mob-mentality?

cydonian_monk 15y ago
Exactly. All of it. If you don't like it, fix it. If you can't fix it, replace it (or ignore it). Just because some companies only want to hire people that write code 24/7 doesn't mean all companies have to. And there are some of us that work in closed-source or secure code that simply don't have a public codebase. And an occasional few that are contractually prohibited from writing public code in their "off" time. (Does having a large codebase freely available make evaluating a potential hire easier? No doubt. I'm not questioning that.) I'm a programmer by trade but a hardware guy by birth and education. I don't do endless amounts of coding in my off-time, but instead build things. When it comes time for me to move on, if /everybody/ I talk to requires a large open-source codebase for me to even sit in the same room as them - I won't care. I'll find some like-minded folk and create my own job.
oconnor0 15y ago
> Unfortunately, we live in the world where people eat people. I'd be up for changing the world so people stop eating each other.

mcginniwa 15y ago

You are operating under a false assumption. That is that all public repositories (i.e. Open Source) are filled with work by unpaid volunteers. That is simply not the case for a large portion of Open Source projects (and therefore public GitHub repositories). I've been an Open Source contributor for more than a decade. I would say 90% of my open source contributions have been work where I'm extending or improving an Open Source project's code to suit a paying client's needs.

sown 15y ago
I'm not sure what you mean. I am aware that not all open source is written by unpaid volunteers but that doesn't address my central point. If the industry demands that everyone write code, be it OSS, personal or just random junk code because they HAVE to, then github/bitbucket/launchpad/sourceforge/etc plus individual portfolios will see an inflation of sorts in code written, some of it good, most of it bad or mediocre. Let's just keep off-hours code as a bonus and not hold it against someone if it is not there. Keep fun-coding for fun! :D Wouldn't you rather have people contribute to an OSS project because they want to, not because they feel compelled to?
- lutorm 15y ago
  I'm not entirely disagreeing with your argument, but isn't it kind of like saying "if the industry demands that people write job applications to get a job, they will be flooded with bad applications"? While that's true, it doesn't change the fact that you need data to evaluate applicants on. I don't see how people will think that writing crap code will improve their chances. Besides, there is absolutely no difference between "counting something as a bonus" and "not holding it against someone". Hiring is a zero-sum game, your advantage is necessarily the others' disadvantage.

resnamen 15y ago

I'm not even allowed to write code off hours! All my code is belong to my employer. Am I a bad hire?

danielharan 15y ago
No, you're working at a bad company.
- sanderjd 15y ago
  You absolutely do not have enough context to make that judgement. I doubt his company is curing cancer or colonizing mars, but do you really think poor intellectual property assignment policies alone make any company, bad? It is one of many, many axes and it doesn't override everything else.
danssig 15y ago
If your company is dictating what you do when you're not working you either need to find out if those clauses are even binding (probably not) or just find a modern place to work. If they really control what you do when you're not on the clock then explain to me how you're not a slave. The worst part about this is, if companies are allowed to do this they can ensure that some people must continue working for a living instead of becoming financially independent through their own talent.