6 ms·

> More curious is the very direct "your team is too male" and the encouragement to fire someone. Everyone in tech knows this is happening, and it's illegal, bu

> More curious is the very direct "your team is too male" and the encouragement to fire someone. Everyone in tech knows this is happening, and it's illegal, but nobody will do anything about it. Similar to ageism back in the 2000s.

Seattle3503 4y ago
Have you seen this first hand?
- malandrew 4y ago
  I have. Only once or twice this egregious. Most of the time however it’s explicit diversity incentives for executives if they want to hit their perf targets. If you can’t get the hires, the other way to game it is to shrink the denominator if you fail to increase the numerator.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  I have witnessed first hand discrimination based on race and gender. Ageism too.
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  I work at a FANG and there was a reshuffling in my team of 30 people as a new manager came in - there were 5 women/25 men. After the reshuffling, the 5 women became the 5 new TLs of the 5 projects our team was subdivided into. And the manager talks all the time about how he wants to empower women. Not sure if that counts. I guess it could have just been coincidence.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
    Is TL a Teralitre, Turkish lira or Teen's Love?
    - blindriver 4y ago
      Tech Lead
    - potatochup 4y ago
      Team/tech Lead?
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  I saw this in academia over a decade ago. Someone who was the ultimate decider said that the group already had enough "pale males;" a look was given to me and guy in the wheelchair because, by virtue of our disabilities, we were presumed to already be on the Yay Diversity! Squad, despite our pallor and penisness. That was the phrase, I was in the room, etc. It doesn't just happen, they don't really try to hide it now.
0xcafefood 4y ago
Had a manager at one job tell me explicitly that they gave an interview to a candidate but knew it wouldn't move forward to a hire since they wanted to hire a woman. I felt gross hearing and knowing that but it was said and not written so there was nothing I could do about it. And I probably would've gotten fired for raising an issue even if I did have that in writing.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  By you sharing you have added some good to a bad situation.
- eh9 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    HR roles, like most others, are numbers driven. Recruiters are expected to deliver a number of applicants, interview a number of candidates, etc. This means that yes, they often interview people they have no intention to hire: It makes the HR person look good. This can happen if they have a diversity hire directive but interview non-diverse candidates, but it can also happen if they want to hire a white guy but have a company directive to interview diverse candidates for every role. Either way, they can say they looked at everyone before hiring whatever candidate they wanted.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    I dunno where you all are working but I've never worked on any software team that was exclusively white and male.
    - eh9 4y ago
      Of course, statistically speaking, it was probably only 80-90% white male.
      - 4y ago
riffraff 4y ago
> Similar to ageism back in the 2000s. do you believe ageism "solved", or do you mean it's something people talk about openly these days? I thought it was discussed in the 00s too.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  I think it's much less of a problem these days, partly because the talent crunch forced tech companies to hire older employees as well. It's still present, but not as rampant and intense as it was. Also, note that it was discussed and acknowledged at the time, but that didn't magically make it go away. Zuck stated on record that if you're over 30, successful companies should not employ you, and he was the founder, owner, and chief exec of a major tech corporation. Everyone knew it was going on, it was also acknowledged, and it was illegal, yet nobody did anything about it, and it kept going. Dispels your illusion of how illegal / immoral practices just go away when they are exposed. The current trend of gender and race-based discrimination won't just go away by itself, either.
- freetanga 4y ago
  The ageists of the 00s now are running the company, but also nearing their 50s. So less ageism.
TheDong 4y ago
[flagged]
malwrar 4y ago
Once during a hiring panel at a previous role, the hiring manager asked us to be sure we reviewed the candidate as a junior. After we gave feedback, they mentioned they were being pressured to hire a woman and that this was why we were asked to judge the candidate below standards. Ultimately got the job, and while she turned out to be a quick learner and great coworker I still remember how shocked and… helpless I felt to actually witness it for myself. Several other candidates, all male, were not hired because we only had one remaining headcount. I feel like I was party to discrimination and still feel vaguely guilty about it.
- RangerScience 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - malwrar 4y ago
    I agree with your take despite the downvotes. Ultimately this person went on to be successful and was formidable and honest. They deserved the chance they were given, just as most of the other candidates so far have made it my way (imo) did. People have taken chances on me too. Real life is full of complex feelings. I don’t really think this experience demonstrated anything to me other than that this sort of pressure exists.
    - RangerScience 4y ago
      Totes, and thanks :) BTW, I think about this conversation a lot, any time I think about ends versus means, you might also appreciate it: https://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-112-2/ https://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-112-2/

Seattle3503 4y ago

Have you seen this first hand?

malandrew 4y ago
I have. Only once or twice this egregious. Most of the time however it’s explicit diversity incentives for executives if they want to hit their perf targets. If you can’t get the hires, the other way to game it is to shrink the denominator if you fail to increase the numerator.
NeverFade 4y ago
I have witnessed first hand discrimination based on race and gender. Ageism too.
oh_sigh 4y ago
I work at a FANG and there was a reshuffling in my team of 30 people as a new manager came in - there were 5 women/25 men. After the reshuffling, the 5 women became the 5 new TLs of the 5 projects our team was subdivided into. And the manager talks all the time about how he wants to empower women. Not sure if that counts. I guess it could have just been coincidence.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  Is TL a Teralitre, Turkish lira or Teen's Love?
  - blindriver 4y ago
    Tech Lead
  - potatochup 4y ago
    Team/tech Lead?
at_a_remove 4y ago
I saw this in academia over a decade ago. Someone who was the ultimate decider said that the group already had enough "pale males;" a look was given to me and guy in the wheelchair because, by virtue of our disabilities, we were presumed to already be on the Yay Diversity! Squad, despite our pallor and penisness. That was the phrase, I was in the room, etc. It doesn't just happen, they don't really try to hide it now.

0xcafefood 4y ago

Had a manager at one job tell me explicitly that they gave an interview to a candidate but knew it wouldn't move forward to a hire since they wanted to hire a woman. I felt gross hearing and knowing that but it was said and not written so there was nothing I could do about it. And I probably would've gotten fired for raising an issue even if I did have that in writing.

ipaddr 4y ago
By you sharing you have added some good to a bad situation.
eh9 4y ago
[flagged]
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  HR roles, like most others, are numbers driven. Recruiters are expected to deliver a number of applicants, interview a number of candidates, etc. This means that yes, they often interview people they have no intention to hire: It makes the HR person look good. This can happen if they have a diversity hire directive but interview non-diverse candidates, but it can also happen if they want to hire a white guy but have a company directive to interview diverse candidates for every role. Either way, they can say they looked at everyone before hiring whatever candidate they wanted.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  I dunno where you all are working but I've never worked on any software team that was exclusively white and male.
  - eh9 4y ago
    Of course, statistically speaking, it was probably only 80-90% white male.
    - 4y ago

riffraff 4y ago

> Similar to ageism back in the 2000s. do you believe ageism "solved", or do you mean it's something people talk about openly these days? I thought it was discussed in the 00s too.

NeverFade 4y ago
I think it's much less of a problem these days, partly because the talent crunch forced tech companies to hire older employees as well. It's still present, but not as rampant and intense as it was. Also, note that it was discussed and acknowledged at the time, but that didn't magically make it go away. Zuck stated on record that if you're over 30, successful companies should not employ you, and he was the founder, owner, and chief exec of a major tech corporation. Everyone knew it was going on, it was also acknowledged, and it was illegal, yet nobody did anything about it, and it kept going. Dispels your illusion of how illegal / immoral practices just go away when they are exposed. The current trend of gender and race-based discrimination won't just go away by itself, either.
freetanga 4y ago
The ageists of the 00s now are running the company, but also nearing their 50s. So less ageism.

TheDong 4y ago

[flagged]

malwrar 4y ago

Once during a hiring panel at a previous role, the hiring manager asked us to be sure we reviewed the candidate as a junior. After we gave feedback, they mentioned they were being pressured to hire a woman and that this was why we were asked to judge the candidate below standards. Ultimately got the job, and while she turned out to be a quick learner and great coworker I still remember how shocked and… helpless I felt to actually witness it for myself. Several other candidates, all male, were not hired because we only had one remaining headcount. I feel like I was party to discrimination and still feel vaguely guilty about it.

RangerScience 4y ago
[flagged]
- malwrar 4y ago
  I agree with your take despite the downvotes. Ultimately this person went on to be successful and was formidable and honest. They deserved the chance they were given, just as most of the other candidates so far have made it my way (imo) did. People have taken chances on me too. Real life is full of complex feelings. I don’t really think this experience demonstrated anything to me other than that this sort of pressure exists.
  - RangerScience 4y ago
    Totes, and thanks :) BTW, I think about this conversation a lot, any time I think about ends versus means, you might also appreciate it: https://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-112-2/ https://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-112-2/