5 ms·

This is why I'm so grateful to work in SWE where skills and progress are somewhat objective. If such a situation occured with my boss I could just resign and ha

This is why I'm so grateful to work in SWE where skills and progress are somewhat objective. If such a situation occured with my boss I could just resign and have a new job in a couple weeks. Their loss. But in management you've spent years at the company building up to your current role, and you're just kinda stuck with people. Can't imagine how stressful it would be to be in that person's position.

userbinator 4y ago
where skills and progress are somewhat objective They are, but then there's this other thing called DEI...
- eh9 4y ago
  [flagged]
- bitcharmer 4y ago
  What is DEI?
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
    - josteink 4y ago
      Aka: Hire anyone except white, heterosexual males.
      - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        Unless you're in traditionally pink collar jobs, in which case they're the ones who would be preferred (except for child care, where men who wish to work in the field are given a long hard look).
        barry-cotter 4y ago
        > Unless you're in traditionally pink collar jobs, in which case they're the ones who would be preferred Have you seen any evidence of this or are speaking from theory?
        anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        I personally haven't seen any evidence of any affirmative action. Mostly because I'm not looking. So I'm speaking from theory. A quick search on affirmative action for nursing pops this up: https://allnurses.com/affirmative-action-male-applicants-t127145/ https://allnurses.com/affirmative-action-male-applicants-t12... > "I believe this is already quietly done. It's just not talked about. The community colleges usually do not participate in AA. It's the BSN-level colleges that frequently use AA in choosing applicants - including the application of AA for male applicants."
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - fsdjkflsjfsoij 4y ago
        It's extremely common for them to discriminate against asian males as well. It was outside of a hiring context but I've had people in this sphere call me "basically white" multiple times.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- nerdponx 4y ago
  I've never seen someone unqualified get hired on DEI grounds, and I haven't seen evidence that it happens elsewhere. I'm not sure what your point is.
  - baumy 4y ago
    I have repeatedly seen this happen personally, and every single person in my professional network who I trust enough to have a candid conversation with on this topic has seen the same at least once (in fairness, that is only 3 people. but broaching this topic with the wrong person is very risky). There's quite a few people in this comment section attesting to this as well. Is there a threshold you have in mind for a number of people who would need to speak up before you believe they aren't mistaken or lying? Would the only thing that would convince you this is happening be some kind of large scale study? If so, do you honestly believe such a study would ever actually be conducted, or that anyone would be willing to open themselves up to the consequences of gathering evidence on this? Even if someone was willing to try, do you think it would actually be possible to gather evidence that companies discriminate on the basis of gender or race when making hiring decisions?
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      I'll happily change my mind in the face of evidence. Usually I see a lot of hand-wringing and speculating about it, rather than anecdotes and data. Proving causality in some kind of observational data set might be difficult, but I am not one to discount individual people's experiences either. So if you have examples of unqualified candidates being hired on diversity grounds, then I'd like to hear your stories. In my own professional and social circles, it's very rare to see an unqualified hire at all, so maybe my personal sample isn't where the problem happens.
NeverFade 4y ago
> If such a situation occured with my boss I could just resign and have a new job in a couple weeks. Why should you leave your job because a criminal chose to sexually assault you? Yes, you could find a new job, but what if you're months away from a major stock grant, a bonus, completing an important project? Just because you're an engineer doesn't mean there's no penalty to quitting suddenly because someone victimized you.
- jxramos 4y ago
  Usually you mention that sort of compensation opportunity cost and the hiring company can match it with a sign on bonus to make a pain free transition.
  - NeverFade 4y ago
    We're really assuming a lot about the new employer here. Let's not get too smug about the great employment market we've had for the past decade. It may not last forever, or much longer. Also, it depends on the opportunity cost. It's great to think you're such a great guy that any employer will pay anything to have you, but that's simply not true for most people. If you're losing out on a major grant or bonus, that could be far more than the new employer is willing to pay. I know because I've been in these situations, on both sides of the table. If we budgeted $500k for some job, you're not getting an extra $250k just because you'd about to get that in two months if you stayed with your current employer. And no new employer can compensate you for the right to mention on your resume that you completed a major project you were 6 months from completing when some criminal decided to harass you.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - jxramos 4y ago
      it is and there's nothing formulaic here nor any guarantees. Folks can also sit and wait it out and tell the recruiters "now's not a good time but I can reach out to you after X months and we can continue from where we left off once I secure XYZ". People can also decide to pass on deferred compensation when it's not "life changing money" as I heard one individual express once when he left behind some pension or stock or whatever the carrot was that was held out in the nearish future at a previous company I was at. Basically end this deferred compensation for the promise of a better one albeit with a later maturity date. Lots of calculus and variables involved in these situations obviously but it never hurts to ask and align on these sorts of things where possible. Folks usually don't get mad when others act in their best interest, they'd do the same if they were in the others shoes is how it seems to me.
WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
"I could just resign and have a new job in a couple weeks. Their loss." Lawsuits follow you. Once employers do a background checks they will know about any lawsuit you are involved in any way. They are publicly available for anyone to find.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
password11 4y ago
^ just want to clarify, alleged position.

userbinator 4y ago

where skills and progress are somewhat objective They are, but then there's this other thing called DEI...

eh9 4y ago
[flagged]
bitcharmer 4y ago
What is DEI?
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
  - josteink 4y ago
    Aka: Hire anyone except white, heterosexual males.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      Unless you're in traditionally pink collar jobs, in which case they're the ones who would be preferred (except for child care, where men who wish to work in the field are given a long hard look).
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        > Unless you're in traditionally pink collar jobs, in which case they're the ones who would be preferred Have you seen any evidence of this or are speaking from theory?
        anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        I personally haven't seen any evidence of any affirmative action. Mostly because I'm not looking. So I'm speaking from theory. A quick search on affirmative action for nursing pops this up: https://allnurses.com/affirmative-action-male-applicants-t127145/ https://allnurses.com/affirmative-action-male-applicants-t12... > "I believe this is already quietly done. It's just not talked about. The community colleges usually do not participate in AA. It's the BSN-level colleges that frequently use AA in choosing applicants - including the application of AA for male applicants."
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - fsdjkflsjfsoij 4y ago
      It's extremely common for them to discriminate against asian males as well. It was outside of a hiring context but I've had people in this sphere call me "basically white" multiple times.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nerdponx 4y ago
I've never seen someone unqualified get hired on DEI grounds, and I haven't seen evidence that it happens elsewhere. I'm not sure what your point is.
- baumy 4y ago
  I have repeatedly seen this happen personally, and every single person in my professional network who I trust enough to have a candid conversation with on this topic has seen the same at least once (in fairness, that is only 3 people. but broaching this topic with the wrong person is very risky). There's quite a few people in this comment section attesting to this as well. Is there a threshold you have in mind for a number of people who would need to speak up before you believe they aren't mistaken or lying? Would the only thing that would convince you this is happening be some kind of large scale study? If so, do you honestly believe such a study would ever actually be conducted, or that anyone would be willing to open themselves up to the consequences of gathering evidence on this? Even if someone was willing to try, do you think it would actually be possible to gather evidence that companies discriminate on the basis of gender or race when making hiring decisions?
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    I'll happily change my mind in the face of evidence. Usually I see a lot of hand-wringing and speculating about it, rather than anecdotes and data. Proving causality in some kind of observational data set might be difficult, but I am not one to discount individual people's experiences either. So if you have examples of unqualified candidates being hired on diversity grounds, then I'd like to hear your stories. In my own professional and social circles, it's very rare to see an unqualified hire at all, so maybe my personal sample isn't where the problem happens.

NeverFade 4y ago

> If such a situation occured with my boss I could just resign and have a new job in a couple weeks. Why should you leave your job because a criminal chose to sexually assault you? Yes, you could find a new job, but what if you're months away from a major stock grant, a bonus, completing an important project? Just because you're an engineer doesn't mean there's no penalty to quitting suddenly because someone victimized you.

jxramos 4y ago
Usually you mention that sort of compensation opportunity cost and the hiring company can match it with a sign on bonus to make a pain free transition.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  We're really assuming a lot about the new employer here. Let's not get too smug about the great employment market we've had for the past decade. It may not last forever, or much longer. Also, it depends on the opportunity cost. It's great to think you're such a great guy that any employer will pay anything to have you, but that's simply not true for most people. If you're losing out on a major grant or bonus, that could be far more than the new employer is willing to pay. I know because I've been in these situations, on both sides of the table. If we budgeted $500k for some job, you're not getting an extra $250k just because you'd about to get that in two months if you stayed with your current employer. And no new employer can compensate you for the right to mention on your resume that you completed a major project you were 6 months from completing when some criminal decided to harass you.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jxramos 4y ago
    it is and there's nothing formulaic here nor any guarantees. Folks can also sit and wait it out and tell the recruiters "now's not a good time but I can reach out to you after X months and we can continue from where we left off once I secure XYZ". People can also decide to pass on deferred compensation when it's not "life changing money" as I heard one individual express once when he left behind some pension or stock or whatever the carrot was that was held out in the nearish future at a previous company I was at. Basically end this deferred compensation for the promise of a better one albeit with a later maturity date. Lots of calculus and variables involved in these situations obviously but it never hurts to ask and align on these sorts of things where possible. Folks usually don't get mad when others act in their best interest, they'd do the same if they were in the others shoes is how it seems to me.

WheelsAtLarge 4y ago

"I could just resign and have a new job in a couple weeks. Their loss." Lawsuits follow you. Once employers do a background checks they will know about any lawsuit you are involved in any way. They are publicly available for anyone to find.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

password11 4y ago

^ just want to clarify, alleged position.