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I want to point out that it's long been HN filter policy to "kill" posts that use a word beginning with m for self stimulation they is very relevant to this dis

I want to point out that it's long been HN filter policy to "kill" posts that use a word beginning with m for self stimulation they is very relevant to this discussion. If you turn on showdead you'll see a few dead posts by people that aren't otherwise shadowbanned, because they used that word. Seems like a good argument against censorship, especially as it relates to normal activity.

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ggm 4y ago
Pragmatically if it stops a spam burden, I don't much care. Beaver college sports and The UK town of Scunthorpe are well used to this kind of regex filter, and neither have ceased to exist online. I don't think this is a good argument against censorship at all.
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- OnlineGladiator 4y ago
  > Pragmatically if it stops a spam burden, I don't much care. I doubt there are people/bots spamming about jerking off on HN. It makes me wonder why this rule was implemented.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    There are porn bots in the comments section of my personal website that like 5 people have ever read. HN is a big website, I'm sure spam is a major problem.
    - function_seven 4y ago
      I browse with showdead turned on. I never see porn spam. You could say maybe those comments are completely removed, but then that wouldn’t explain the graying out of comments with “masturbation” in them.
      - ggm 4y ago
        If an option to see something exists and is published I don't personally think you can call it censorship. This is a curated space. Dang and others get to make choices, it's part of the implicit social contract here. I'm not a free speech reductionist, it should be clear. I think pragmatically speaking that if the filters were made, there was a reason and if the filters can be turned off, there's very little of substance here to comment on.
madeofpalk 4y ago
The conceit of Hacker News is that it is heavily censored/moderated so the site has, in the eyes of its operator, a high signal:noise ratio.
sillysaurusx 4y ago
I’m all for pushing back against the mods. Lord knows I’ve done it more than I probably should have. But one thing I came to understand after my long slugging match with them is that they have a lot of concerns that are very hard to balance. In this case, here’s the calculus: how many valuable comments do you think were lost as a result of killing that word? The kinds of comments you’d read and think “I really want to come back here.” I agree it’s more than zero. But it’s likely several orders of magnitude fewer than the number of comments that were filtered by it — which is to say, if those comments had no effect on readers, or didn’t make them want to come back, then by definition it was a net positive for the site, and thus the community. Their duty is to the community. The decisions they make are for that goal alone: to collect as many smart people together under one virtual roof as possible, without us tearing each other to shreds. This is as hard as it sounds. The grim reality is that no other community has ever pulled that off. I believe HN will hit the 100 year mark in longevity. It’s already been around for something like 17. But to get there requires manual intervention at a scale not previously seen. Reddit is on autopilot compared to HN, and although it’s popular, few of us want to stay there. So when you rally people to fight them for censoring a word, what you’re really doing is claiming to know how to do their jobs more effectively than they do. And they’ve been doing it for many, many years. I once tried to launch an HN clone that for a time achieved small-scale popularity, and it took everything I had in me — all day, every day, mostly curating stories. I could do it, but it’s not fun (though it’s fascinating). So, try to cut them a little slack and look at the big picture. Are you sure that this is worth rousing everyone up in arms about? Then think it over for awhile, and ask yourself a few more times. If you really try to put yourself in their shoes, as if it was your full time job, then I think you’ll be forced to conclude “It’s complicated.” Or at least that’s the reality that I eventually accepted. There’s another word that was banned long ago, involving a circle of men. But as pg himself once said (paraphrasing), “I doubt we lost many valuable comments from it.” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6825942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6825942 The coolest part of HN is that you can have an effect. If you see a dead comment that you think will make readers want to return to the site tomorrow, click on its timestamp and then click “vouch.” It only takes one to unkill a comment. But use it sparingly, since it’s a privilege. It was a feature designed for just this sort of situation.
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dredmorbius 4y ago
True, but HN also has "showdead" and "vouch" which can overcome both automatic filters and user flags. If that's not enough or you're seeing an especially egregious case, you can also email mods. I'll do that occasionally, though usually simply vouch dead comments if I feel that's warranted. It apparently takes a few vouches to overcome a kill.

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ggm 4y ago

Pragmatically if it stops a spam burden, I don't much care. Beaver college sports and The UK town of Scunthorpe are well used to this kind of regex filter, and neither have ceased to exist online. I don't think this is a good argument against censorship at all.

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OnlineGladiator 4y ago
> Pragmatically if it stops a spam burden, I don't much care. I doubt there are people/bots spamming about jerking off on HN. It makes me wonder why this rule was implemented.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  There are porn bots in the comments section of my personal website that like 5 people have ever read. HN is a big website, I'm sure spam is a major problem.
  - function_seven 4y ago
    I browse with showdead turned on. I never see porn spam. You could say maybe those comments are completely removed, but then that wouldn’t explain the graying out of comments with “masturbation” in them.
    - ggm 4y ago
      If an option to see something exists and is published I don't personally think you can call it censorship. This is a curated space. Dang and others get to make choices, it's part of the implicit social contract here. I'm not a free speech reductionist, it should be clear. I think pragmatically speaking that if the filters were made, there was a reason and if the filters can be turned off, there's very little of substance here to comment on.

madeofpalk 4y ago

The conceit of Hacker News is that it is heavily censored/moderated so the site has, in the eyes of its operator, a high signal:noise ratio.

sillysaurusx 4y ago

I’m all for pushing back against the mods. Lord knows I’ve done it more than I probably should have. But one thing I came to understand after my long slugging match with them is that they have a lot of concerns that are very hard to balance. In this case, here’s the calculus: how many valuable comments do you think were lost as a result of killing that word? The kinds of comments you’d read and think “I really want to come back here.” I agree it’s more than zero. But it’s likely several orders of magnitude fewer than the number of comments that were filtered by it — which is to say, if those comments had no effect on readers, or didn’t make them want to come back, then by definition it was a net positive for the site, and thus the community. Their duty is to the community. The decisions they make are for that goal alone: to collect as many smart people together under one virtual roof as possible, without us tearing each other to shreds. This is as hard as it sounds. The grim reality is that no other community has ever pulled that off. I believe HN will hit the 100 year mark in longevity. It’s already been around for something like 17. But to get there requires manual intervention at a scale not previously seen. Reddit is on autopilot compared to HN, and although it’s popular, few of us want to stay there. So when you rally people to fight them for censoring a word, what you’re really doing is claiming to know how to do their jobs more effectively than they do. And they’ve been doing it for many, many years. I once tried to launch an HN clone that for a time achieved small-scale popularity, and it took everything I had in me — all day, every day, mostly curating stories. I could do it, but it’s not fun (though it’s fascinating). So, try to cut them a little slack and look at the big picture. Are you sure that this is worth rousing everyone up in arms about? Then think it over for awhile, and ask yourself a few more times. If you really try to put yourself in their shoes, as if it was your full time job, then I think you’ll be forced to conclude “It’s complicated.” Or at least that’s the reality that I eventually accepted. There’s another word that was banned long ago, involving a circle of men. But as pg himself once said (paraphrasing), “I doubt we lost many valuable comments from it.” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6825942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6825942 The coolest part of HN is that you can have an effect. If you see a dead comment that you think will make readers want to return to the site tomorrow, click on its timestamp and then click “vouch.” It only takes one to unkill a comment. But use it sparingly, since it’s a privilege. It was a feature designed for just this sort of situation.

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dredmorbius 4y ago

True, but HN also has "showdead" and "vouch" which can overcome both automatic filters and user flags. If that's not enough or you're seeing an especially egregious case, you can also email mods. I'll do that occasionally, though usually simply vouch dead comments if I feel that's warranted. It apparently takes a few vouches to overcome a kill.