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I've noticed that effect for so many things that have become cultural norms, from the food we eat to how we spend time with our friends. Seems really sad that

I've noticed that effect for so many things that have become cultural norms, from the food we eat to how we spend time with our friends. Seems really sad that we're forced to choose between our own wellbeing and participating in broader culture. Have to point out, though, it seems the one place where everything isn't toxic seems to be (certain forms of) orgnanised religion.

nostrademons 4y ago
Hmm? To me organized religion seems to be the most toxic of all - megachurches and Internet-only pastors are the ones whipping up their followers into believing people that are not like them are existential threats worthy of being killed. The healthier forms of religion are the ones that explicitly un-organized: Unitarian Universalists, Quakers, your local community church that serves as a gathering place for like-minded folks but isn't interested in imposing their beliefs on others. Maybe the lesson there is that organization is the evil, given that it seems to pop up in so many contexts (megacorps < small businesses, megachurches < community organizations, public schooling < small private/parochial/charter schools, big government < grassroots organizations). Would make sense, since an organization, by definition, is about subsuming what individually makes you happy so you can be a part of something bigger. The bigger the organization grows, the less it can fit the authentic selves of the people who support it.
- akkartik 4y ago
  The essential prisoner's dilemma of humanity: * As a group grows it gets worse at serving each individual's needs. * Large groups outcompete and disrupt small ones. I think the trick is for small groups to be illegible to the outside world. Fish school, birds flock and animals herd partly to avoid predators. I wonder if multiple schools/flocks/herds are always superior to a single one, as long as each of them is above some critical threshold.
- chowells 4y ago
  Organization from the bottom up works fine. The problem comes with hierarchies that exist to reinforce power. If you naturally construct a hierarchy to coordinate, great. Let the hierarchy die when the need to coordinate is over. When someone co-opts that hierarchy to increase their own power and reduce that of others, you've got a problem.
  - saurik 4y ago
    > Let the hierarchy die when the need to coordinate is over. That doesn't happen.
    - chowells 4y ago
      It happens all the time in bottom-up disaster relief. Don't assume something doesn't exist just because you don't participate in areas where it's common.
memling 4y ago
> Have to point out, though, it seems the one place where everything isn't toxic seems to be (certain forms of) orgnanised religion. Perhaps what we are seeing is a generalization of religion in which certain aspects of social concern have effectively become religious exercise. This might be a challenging thesis to sustain, but where parallels can be found it might give some broader insight into the present moment.
GoblinSlayer 4y ago
You can participate in broader culture once per month, that should be enough. Anyway most people don't participate but consume.

nostrademons 4y ago

Hmm? To me organized religion seems to be the most toxic of all - megachurches and Internet-only pastors are the ones whipping up their followers into believing people that are not like them are existential threats worthy of being killed. The healthier forms of religion are the ones that explicitly un-organized: Unitarian Universalists, Quakers, your local community church that serves as a gathering place for like-minded folks but isn't interested in imposing their beliefs on others. Maybe the lesson there is that organization is the evil, given that it seems to pop up in so many contexts (megacorps < small businesses, megachurches < community organizations, public schooling < small private/parochial/charter schools, big government < grassroots organizations). Would make sense, since an organization, by definition, is about subsuming what individually makes you happy so you can be a part of something bigger. The bigger the organization grows, the less it can fit the authentic selves of the people who support it.

akkartik 4y ago
The essential prisoner's dilemma of humanity: * As a group grows it gets worse at serving each individual's needs. * Large groups outcompete and disrupt small ones. I think the trick is for small groups to be illegible to the outside world. Fish school, birds flock and animals herd partly to avoid predators. I wonder if multiple schools/flocks/herds are always superior to a single one, as long as each of them is above some critical threshold.
chowells 4y ago
Organization from the bottom up works fine. The problem comes with hierarchies that exist to reinforce power. If you naturally construct a hierarchy to coordinate, great. Let the hierarchy die when the need to coordinate is over. When someone co-opts that hierarchy to increase their own power and reduce that of others, you've got a problem.
- saurik 4y ago
  > Let the hierarchy die when the need to coordinate is over. That doesn't happen.
  - chowells 4y ago
    It happens all the time in bottom-up disaster relief. Don't assume something doesn't exist just because you don't participate in areas where it's common.

memling 4y ago

> Have to point out, though, it seems the one place where everything isn't toxic seems to be (certain forms of) orgnanised religion. Perhaps what we are seeing is a generalization of religion in which certain aspects of social concern have effectively become religious exercise. This might be a challenging thesis to sustain, but where parallels can be found it might give some broader insight into the present moment.

GoblinSlayer 4y ago

You can participate in broader culture once per month, that should be enough. Anyway most people don't participate but consume.