8 ms·

I think it might be because in Europe the sender pays for SMS messages, but in the US, apparently the recipient pays for SMS messages (!) AIUI, this is because

I think it might be because in Europe the sender pays for SMS messages, but in the US, apparently the recipient pays for SMS messages (!) AIUI, this is because in the US they don't set aside different prefixes/area codes for mobile/cell numbers, so when they were first introduced and mobile calls cost more, it was unfair to bill callers extra because they had no way of knowing they would be calling a mobile number. Therefore, they put the extra cost onto the receiver of mobile calls. With this billing expectation in place, they put the cost of SMSs onto the receiver also. It does mean that in the US, businesses sending SMSs to individuals are supposed to go through a "double opt-in" process and have really easy opt-out procedures, on pain of the FCC having some kind of punitive actions available. But I guess they must not be working, or something. Or my info may be out of date?

lxgr 4y ago
This was definitely true at some point, but I don‘t know any plan (including prepaid) that charges for incoming SMS anymore these days. That said, unlike in Europe, there are also effectively no truly free (i.e. no monthly fee) prepaid plans in the US. So in a way, you could also say that users are still sharing the cost of inbound texts, although at an implied flat rate (blended into the monthly minimum that exists even for pay-as-you-go plans), rather than per message.
to11mtm 4y ago
> It does mean that in the US, businesses sending SMSs to individuals are supposed to go through a "double opt-in" process and have really easy opt-out procedures, on pain of the FCC having some kind of punitive actions available. But I guess they must not be working, or something. Technically, the FCC cares about as much about unsolicited robocalls as they do for unsolicited SMS messages for the TCPA. And the penalties can add up quickly; $500-$1,500 USD -per violation-, not per person you violated the TCPA (IOW, if your automated system sends 10 texts to 10 people that it shouldn't have, it's potentially $50,000-$150,000 and not $5,000-15,000). The upshot for -consumers-, is that there are lots of hungry TCPA lawyers that will happily take your case. Some people even try to file claims themselves, even if it may not be fully legitimate[0]. The issue with robocalls, versus SMS messages: I've found that even if you follow the TCPA 'Script', you'll at best wind up in a weird state in the robocaller's system where they will still call you, but the system immediately disconnects. On top of that, the numbers are often spoofed anyway[1] so it's difficult to get the right number. AFAIK SMS messages, it's harder to spoof the number.[2] [0] - 'Illegitimate claim' can range from "Somebody didn't pay attention to a box they checked on an online form" to "Welp this guy's going to jail for stalking... I guess stupid criminals do exist." [1] - IDK if SHAKEN/STIR will help much, but here's hoping [2] - OTOH There is a real problem with numbers getting 'poached', even if they are already registered with a VOIP carrier that follows all the proper processes around porting. One bad actor makes it easy to mess up the system.
jeroenhd 4y ago
> I think it might be because in Europe the sender pays for SMS messages, but in the US, apparently the recipient pays for SMS messages (!) That explains all the weird messages apps show about verification SMS "incurring charges"! Back in high school I avoided so many apps for no clear reason because I was afraid I needed to pay a fee every time I used these apps and only found out years later that none of that stuff would've cost me anything. A service where you have no real say in the charges you need to pay when someone else contacts you through it sounds so crazy to me! I'm pretty sure most people in most countries don't get charged per SMS anymore, though.
toast0 4y ago
The caller/sender always pays something, but in the US the recipient pays extra for their technology, and in most of Europe, the caller/sender pays and so the numbering plan makes it easy to identify what calls will cost more. (Although, there are German sims setup to use landline numbers so that callers can pay landline rates, presumably the recipient pays for calls in both directions on those sims?) The US environment led to prices trending to under a penny to send an sms or make a one minute phone call. IIRC, FCC rules say telephone carriers can no longer charge other telephone carriers for calls at all, the wholesale price is zero (+ connection costs). On the other hand, in Europe, sending an SMS or calling a mobile phone for a minute is closer to 10-20 cents. That's a lot costlier, and then you've got a lot more languages to support, and different payment preferences per country. Easier to just target English and the US.
- lxgr 4y ago
  > there are German sims setup to use landline numbers so that callers can pay landline rates, presumably the recipient pays for calls in both directions on those sims? The interconnection rates used to be an important source of income for mobile operators (some of them would even pay their prepaid users, not paying any monthly fee, a bonus per incoming minute of calls!), but these days, mobile and landline interconnect rates have almost converged, as far as I can tell.
  - toast0 4y ago
    If you look at Twilio's pricing [1], because it's easy to link to and mostly reasonable, it's 0.0150 USD/min to landlines, and 0.2380 USD/min to mobile phones (calls to EPlus are higher). That's 15x the cost, far from converged. Although, I do see if you're calling from EEA, the price drops down to 0.04 USD/min, which is much closer, so that's close to convergence. [1] https://www.twilio.com/voice/pricing/de https://www.twilio.com/voice/pricing/de
    - lxgr 4y ago
      Mobile terminated calls have interconnection fees no higher than 0.4 cents per minute in Germany (i.e. 0.004 EUR!), with no distinction between the three networks. E-Plus also hasn't existed as an independent entity for quite some years now; they were acquired by Telefonica/O2 in 2014. Seems like Twilio is charging quite the margin there, based on vastly outdated pricing...

lxgr 4y ago

This was definitely true at some point, but I don‘t know any plan (including prepaid) that charges for incoming SMS anymore these days. That said, unlike in Europe, there are also effectively no truly free (i.e. no monthly fee) prepaid plans in the US. So in a way, you could also say that users are still sharing the cost of inbound texts, although at an implied flat rate (blended into the monthly minimum that exists even for pay-as-you-go plans), rather than per message.

to11mtm 4y ago

> It does mean that in the US, businesses sending SMSs to individuals are supposed to go through a "double opt-in" process and have really easy opt-out procedures, on pain of the FCC having some kind of punitive actions available. But I guess they must not be working, or something. Technically, the FCC cares about as much about unsolicited robocalls as they do for unsolicited SMS messages for the TCPA. And the penalties can add up quickly; $500-$1,500 USD -per violation-, not per person you violated the TCPA (IOW, if your automated system sends 10 texts to 10 people that it shouldn't have, it's potentially $50,000-$150,000 and not $5,000-15,000). The upshot for -consumers-, is that there are lots of hungry TCPA lawyers that will happily take your case. Some people even try to file claims themselves, even if it may not be fully legitimate[0]. The issue with robocalls, versus SMS messages: I've found that even if you follow the TCPA 'Script', you'll at best wind up in a weird state in the robocaller's system where they will still call you, but the system immediately disconnects. On top of that, the numbers are often spoofed anyway[1] so it's difficult to get the right number. AFAIK SMS messages, it's harder to spoof the number.[2] [0] - 'Illegitimate claim' can range from "Somebody didn't pay attention to a box they checked on an online form" to "Welp this guy's going to jail for stalking... I guess stupid criminals do exist." [1] - IDK if SHAKEN/STIR will help much, but here's hoping [2] - OTOH There is a real problem with numbers getting 'poached', even if they are already registered with a VOIP carrier that follows all the proper processes around porting. One bad actor makes it easy to mess up the system.

jeroenhd 4y ago

> I think it might be because in Europe the sender pays for SMS messages, but in the US, apparently the recipient pays for SMS messages (!) That explains all the weird messages apps show about verification SMS "incurring charges"! Back in high school I avoided so many apps for no clear reason because I was afraid I needed to pay a fee every time I used these apps and only found out years later that none of that stuff would've cost me anything. A service where you have no real say in the charges you need to pay when someone else contacts you through it sounds so crazy to me! I'm pretty sure most people in most countries don't get charged per SMS anymore, though.

toast0 4y ago

The caller/sender always pays something, but in the US the recipient pays extra for their technology, and in most of Europe, the caller/sender pays and so the numbering plan makes it easy to identify what calls will cost more. (Although, there are German sims setup to use landline numbers so that callers can pay landline rates, presumably the recipient pays for calls in both directions on those sims?) The US environment led to prices trending to under a penny to send an sms or make a one minute phone call. IIRC, FCC rules say telephone carriers can no longer charge other telephone carriers for calls at all, the wholesale price is zero (+ connection costs). On the other hand, in Europe, sending an SMS or calling a mobile phone for a minute is closer to 10-20 cents. That's a lot costlier, and then you've got a lot more languages to support, and different payment preferences per country. Easier to just target English and the US.

lxgr 4y ago
> there are German sims setup to use landline numbers so that callers can pay landline rates, presumably the recipient pays for calls in both directions on those sims? The interconnection rates used to be an important source of income for mobile operators (some of them would even pay their prepaid users, not paying any monthly fee, a bonus per incoming minute of calls!), but these days, mobile and landline interconnect rates have almost converged, as far as I can tell.
- toast0 4y ago
  If you look at Twilio's pricing [1], because it's easy to link to and mostly reasonable, it's 0.0150 USD/min to landlines, and 0.2380 USD/min to mobile phones (calls to EPlus are higher). That's 15x the cost, far from converged. Although, I do see if you're calling from EEA, the price drops down to 0.04 USD/min, which is much closer, so that's close to convergence. [1] https://www.twilio.com/voice/pricing/de https://www.twilio.com/voice/pricing/de
  - lxgr 4y ago
    Mobile terminated calls have interconnection fees no higher than 0.4 cents per minute in Germany (i.e. 0.004 EUR!), with no distinction between the three networks. E-Plus also hasn't existed as an independent entity for quite some years now; they were acquired by Telefonica/O2 in 2014. Seems like Twilio is charging quite the margin there, based on vastly outdated pricing...