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Nationwide Ban on TikTok Inches Closer to Reality
- Overtonwindow 4y agoWould this really work? Between side loading, and VPN, this might just force an entire generation of people to learn about block avoidance
- laweijfmvo 4y agoNot to mention the security nightmare of teens everywhere googling "how to sideload TikTok" and following whatever the first result says to do.
- laweijfmvo 4y agoActually, if I was China and wanted to spy on US citizens, I do this - Release an "official" version of TikTok APK with sideloading instructions, which no longer has to pass app store scrutiny and oh, btw, make sure you allow the app to install software, so it can "update itself" - Start a bunch of VPNs under a bunch of made up company names and pay Youtubers to vouch for them and give them away for free Congratulations, NOW China has ALL your data!
- sebzim4500 4y agoYeah but they have the data of the 15 guys running android who are willing to side load apps instead of the data of the 1 billion monthly active users.
- laweijfmvo 4y agoKids are smart with tech. Take away their TikTok and it won't be 15 guys anymore.
- nonrandomstring 4y agoIt's a win-win situation really isn't it? If the ban works young people are shielded from corrosive mind addling junk. To the extent it fails they learn to circumvent patrician censorship. Hard to see any downsides.
- jacooper 4y ago> If the ban works young people are shielded from corrosive mind addling junk. Have you even tried Instagram reels or YouTube shorts? They are the same if not even worse. What happening here is that the US tasted its own medicine of foreign tech influence for the first time. The US government always complained when other countries put limits on their companies, yet now they are doing the same, heck unlike the EU they are completely banning it! If tiktok was american or European, no body would've bat an eye.
- verdverm 4y ago> If tiktok was american or European, no body would've bat an eye. That's because most Chinese companies are subservient to the Chinese Communist Party, whom are doing all within their power to undermine the West. Influencing young people is just one part of that. Is there something wrong with calling it out and preventing it, or should we just let them manipulate opinions?
- the_only_law 4y agoNo, but don’t for a second pretend that banning a single app will shield young people “corrosive mind addling junk”.
- verdverm 4y agoYou seem to have missed the point that TikTok is different, being effectively controlled by a communist regime. This is not about “corrosive mind addling junk”. It is about preventing meddling by a dangerous, communist regime. They manipulate their own people, so don't for a second think they don't manipulate foreigners too.
- ghoomketu 4y agoNationwide bans do work. Tiktok was banned in India even though it was quite popular here. After ban its usage almost flat-lined within days. I think an app like that needs a lot of mass and momentum and side-loading and VPN are limited to a very few savvy users.
- idopmstuff 4y agoIt's probably good enough to shift people to competitors. When it gets that much harder to use, a lot of people will go to Facebook/Instagram/whatever, and if enough of them go then network effects will bring the rest.
- mc32 4y agoThe app is more of a "like to have" more than a want or need. So it would seem people would migrate elsewhere with no big loss (with exception of so called "influencers" who parallel parasitism than productivity.
- s1mon 4y agoI've played with some of the competitors* and nothing else has the responsive UX, or algorithm or the critical mass of creators. The only thing I haven't tried is Snapchat. * Triller, YouTube Shorts, Instagram Reels, Byte, Clash, Likee, and Dubsmash.
- threatofrain 4y agoMerely putting chocolate milk on a somewhat higher shelf will substantively discourage buying. Making it difficult to find pirated media increases demand for subscription services. Making it so you have to follow a slightly off-beaten path to sideload apps means no company wants to do it, because difficulty works.
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- Overtonwindow 4y agoSo it could work.. but.. what would stop another company from making another TikTok? Would you then have to ban that one too?
- diebeforei485 4y agoIf it isn't a Chinese company (or Iranian, Syrian, North Korean, Cuban), the national security concern doesn't exist.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoInteresting, so it would be determined that a social media app produced by one of those countries would be considered a national security threat, and for that reason, that is why it's blocked. That still seems largely unenforceable… TikTok is a very simple app, it could be recreated over a weekend. I don't want the Chinese to have my personal data anymore than the next person, but I also think it's a fools errand to try to play whack-a-mole with these kind of things. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
- Jensson 4y ago> TikTok is a very simple app, it could be recreated over a weekend. No, TikTok depends on paid humans to rank videos, creating that culture to get good results isn't trivial at all.
- diebeforei485 4y agoThe key is - (1) Is this company controlled by a foreign government? (Yes, ByteDance does whatever the CCP tells them to do) (2) Is that government an adversary of the US, and has that government used US data against the US? (China has done this many times). TikTok cannot be recreated in a weekend, at least not at scale.
- xiphias2 4y ago,, TikTok is China’s backdoor into Americans’ lives.” He added, “It threatens our children’s privacy as well as their mental health’’ At this point the legislation should just copy Chinese law: it already limits what social media can show to kids to just education, and also disallows apps from other countries.
- imbnwa 4y agoExcept the point isn't anyone's mental health or privacy, or they would've acted on Facebook or Instagram a long time ago. This is a campaign to eliminate TikTok as a competitor in the American social media market, nothing more.
- xeromal 4y agoI disagree. I'd say it's more of "We own American data through typical backdoor channels. China shouldn't have that privilege". As an American citizen though, I'm inclined to agree.
- pessimizer 4y agoNot even. It's a campaign to threaten TikTok into giving censorship and editorial power to the US government equivalent to what they have on the other large social media networks, and it already worked. Now it's just grandstanding from local nationalists.
- ergocoder 4y ago"grandstanding from local nationalists"? You do know China and US are in multiple global conflicts, right?
- dirtyid 4y agoExcept PRC laws has allowances for foreign operated platforms if they follow PRC data and media filtering laws - what TikTok is basically doing in US, i.e. why Google and Facebook had teams working to get back to PRC market before internal drama killed project. Efforts to get Oracle (and lol walmart) to buy stake in TikTok comes close to PRC JV model / system. Unilateral platform ban is US going beyond what PRC is doing, which is fine - not many choices now that TikTok has penetrated US market more than US platforms in PRC (which did well). It's also fine to acknowledge US is left with legislative sledgehammer option that's much more protectionist and paranoid than PRC.
- lopkeny12ko 4y ago> The app has already been banned on state-issued devices in 28 states and is facing a blanket ban across all federal employees that would prohibit them from using or downloading TikTok on government-owned devices. Is it just me, or does this sound completely reasonable and not at all newsworthy? Why were government employees, with government-owned devices, allowed to install any third party apps (much less social media apps) to begin with? I don't need any security clearance for my job yet my employer MDM-managed device only allows about 10 work-approved apps to be installed.
- pessimizer 4y ago> Is it just me, or does this sound completely reasonable and not at all newsworthy? It's not even you. You seem to find it notable that government employees were allowed to install social media apps at all, so you must find it baffling that they banned TikTok and didn't ban the others.
- blondin 4y agowell, most government have a social media presence. it seems easier to reach people that way. why wouldn't they allow these apps on employees devices, or at least some employees?
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- ThinkBeat 4y agoIt is reasonable to ban all social media of any kind of on an employee phone in my opinion. The government deciding that you can use set of social media apps but not another one is not as reasonable. (Somewhat depending on what classifies as social media, where I would put "hooking up sites" in a different category)
- alberth 4y agoGenuine question… what does TikTok do from a privacy concern that FB isn’t already doing? Because if it’s the same, this feels like US nationalism (and the US creating its own version of the Great Firewall like China does to us).
- thehappypm 4y agoFB will send requested data to the USA, not China. That’s really it.
- ergocoder 4y agoI'm surprised that people don't know nor understand this huge huge difference. Don't they know US and China are opposing global super power with multiple region conflicts like Taiwan, Japan, and etc.?
- Insanity 4y agoOkay, but see it this way. USA has my data vs China has my data. The odds of China having my data impacting my life in a negative way is lower than the USA doing this. That's an assumption, but I think for most people living in the West, that seems at least reasonable to me.
- arealaccount 4y agoNobody cares what happens with your data. They care what happens with the data belonging someone who will some day hold a position of power.
- bcherny 4y agoThe difference is the Chinese government has a board seat at ByteDance, not to mention soft control via broad government authority over markets. If China wants, boosting content to manipulate US elections or tracking the location of people of interest are things it can easily ask TikTok to do (and has done, apparently). This is different from the way the US government uses Facebook, for example. It does not have power to boost or demote content, or request location data for people of interest. It can collect far narrower information about people with a warrant, and even then some data it cannot collect (eg. e2ee messaging data).
- grapesurgeon 4y ago[dead]
- readonthegoapp 4y agoI'd be surprised if this happens Because we usually are more subtle about our censorship and anticompetitive behavior Think al azeera
- Vecr 4y agoWhat's "al azeera"? You mean Al Jazeera?
- raydiatian 4y agoPretty evident that’s what they meant.
- readonthegoapp 4y agogracias - i noticed my typing lately has become no bueno. maybe just trying to do too many things at once and getting careless on the keyboard.
- raydiatian 4y agoSame man. It’s BigKeyboard™ purposely mixing up our character to get us to type more and it’s a scam in my opinion.
- devinprater 4y agoA good start. Ban Facebook next.
- LunicLynx 4y agoIt would be nice if they instead banned some software ui patterns. * Endless scroll * Recommendation based (instead of chose contacts or topics) * Auto play of videos A nice addition would be to ban any kind of clickbait, but that doesn’t seem plausible.
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- sillysaurusx 4y agoYa’ll are missing out on tiktok. I’ve been curating videos since 2019. Educational (404 vids): https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRs5Wvf1/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRs5Wvf1/ Physics (91): https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRs5TykN/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRs5TykN/ Mathematics (104): https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRs5gPKy/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRs5gPKy/ I challenge you to sit through 10 of these — pick any you want. You’ll feel your distaste for tiktok melt away. If tiktok is addictive, then HN is too, and largely for the same reasons. It’s full of interesting, fascinating, long tail content that only hand curation or ML algorithms can provide. If tiktok goes under, it takes these with it. People will migrate to whatever’s next, but if the rest of the world doesn’t, it’ll be our loss.
- reactspa 4y agoThe West is butthurt that China produced an app that their kids love more than homegrown ones. Companies like TWTR, FB, IG are probably secretly pushing this ban. Some years ago, France tried to enforce some law that at least 75% of the content available on the internet in France had to be in the French language. The day Tiktok is banned in the USA, that's the day the American decline starts.
- drexlspivey 4y agoon the other hand China has banned Twitter, Google, Amazon, Facebook, Twitch etc etc so it’s only fair game to ban one of theirs
- xboxnolifes 4y agoNobody is making the claim that the ban is unfair.
- beachwood23 4y agoIt would be a sad day if we are judging our laws by China's. We have different structures and values.
- 3d3456 4y ago
- tarotuser 4y agoAside the whole Sinophobia, I used and summarily quit TikTok because it was too good at what it aimed to do. I found myself binging for an hour here and there inanely scrolling/watching/scrolling ad absurdum. It was self-retrospection that I decided to remove the app and be done.
- movedx 4y agoI think a lot of people come to this conclusion eventually. I was just in England visiting family, and my mother even said she's going to cut down on TikTok after 7pm as she's getting home from work and just wasting her evenings on it.
- MuffinFlavored 4y agoAnd yet here you are on HN (like me) wasting that same precious time...
- tarotuser 4y agoHN doesn't forcefeed custom tailored content in a never-ending stream. In fact, HN has optional account limiting functions to keep from the Tiktok-ification.
- SpeedilyDamage 4y agoSinophobia would be an irrational fear, but TikTok represents a credible threat.
- wavy-dingo 4y agoA credible threat to the monopoly status of homegrown social media in the US? A credible threat to end user’s privacy? Will they ban the other apps that have found to do similar scraping like Facebook or Amazon? A credible threat to the U.S. Government’s control over social media? Is that constitutional for a limited government?
- pipeline_peak 4y ago
- SamReidHughes 4y agoGovernment ruling what software you're allowed to run on your devices.
- imgabe 4y agoImport controls of foreign goods are well within the jurisdiction of government.
- ugh123 4y agoDoes anyone know if Twitter is looking to revive Vine? Elon tweeted this back on Oct 30 and it created some short term buzz. But I haven't heard anything about it since. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586918804780630016 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586918804780630016 Seems like good timing considering he's willing to try anything to beef up revenue. Hopefully they haven't laid off all the employees knowledgeable of the codebase/platform.
- b212 4y agoVine was so much better than Instastories and TikTok. Oh the old days when the content was created for fun not for profit by professional influencers…
- Tangurena2 4y agoMusk has fired so many people, there is no possibility that they can add Vine-like capability to Twitter. Plus, Musk has been alienating the very audience that Vine would reach in order to suck up to the right wing.
- MuffinFlavored 4y agoIs this a nationwide ban for TikTok on government issued devices only? Regular consumers will never affected?
- Tangurena2 4y agoMy state's laws also prohibit anyone using state IT infrastructure from accessing the TikTok website. This means that public libraries, schools and universities will be required by law to block all web traffic to TikTok. Our legislature is currently recessed, but with the emphasis Fox and the GOP has placed on eliminating any potential opposition to right wing media, I expect the bills to get advanced to voting next week when the legislative session resumes. 0 - Senate Bill 20. https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/sb20.html https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/sb20.html 1 - House Bill 124. https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/hb124.html https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/hb124.html
- diebeforei485 4y agoThere is great content on TikTok. But also, TikTok has done shady things, some at the behest of the Chinese government, targeting users in the US and other countries outside China, using the information in their contact book etc. There is no easy way out here. Banning it would mean losing lots of content, and future content creation and consumption moving to an imperfect alternative (YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels etc). Not banning it is a national security issue. Ideally, given that ByteDance cannot be unlinked from the CCP (because that's just how business is done in China), the only other alternative would be if they could divest of their ownership of TikTok and also agree to specific conditions similar to the Twitter-FTC deal.
- MollyRealized 4y agoAt the moment, the top-rated comment in this thread suggests that prohibiting apps on government-owned devices is not newsworthy. Unless this is MY misunderstanding, that's not what being proposed. Looking at the legislation, which I OCR'd below, it looks like this is discussing banning the app "in the United States or come within the United States" or if the app "come[s] within the possession or control of a United States person". In other words, a nationwide ban on the app, citizens and government employees alike. That seems (a) extreme; (b) likely to engender a great deal of illwill against the government by both young and older Americans; (c) unprecedented (to my knowledge at least). * * * BILL TEXT: To impose sanctions with respect to TikTok, and for other purposes. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the “No TikTok on United States Devices Act". SEC. 2. IMPOSITION OF SANCTIONS WITH RESPECT TO TIKTOK. (a) BLOCKING OF PROPERTY.—On and after the date that is 80 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President shall exercise all the powers granted to the President under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. L701 et. seq.) to the extent necessary to block and prohibit all transactions in all property and interests in property of a covered company if such property and interests in property— (1) are in the United States or come within the United States; or . (2) to the extent necessary to prevent commercial operation of the covered company in the United States, are or come within the possession or control of a United States person. (b) INAPPLICABILITY OF NATIONAL EMERGENCY REQUIREMENT.—The requirements of section 202 of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701) shall not apply for purposes of this section. (c) IMPLEMENTATION. (1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in paragraph (2), the President may exercise all authorities provided under sections 203 and 205 of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1702 and 1704) to carry out this section. (2) Exceptions.—The exceptions under subsection (b) of section 203 of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1702) shall not apply to the use by the President in carrying out this section of the authorities under such section 203. (d) Penalties.—A person that violates, attempts to violate, conspires to violate, or causes a violation of this section or any regulation, license, or order issued to carry out this section shall be subject to the penalties set forth in subsections (b) and (¢) of section 206 of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1705) to the same extent as a person that commits an unlawful act described in subsection (a) of that section. (e) NATIONAL SECURITY AND RESEARCH EXCEPTIONS.—Sanctions under this section shall not apply with respect to law enforcement activities, national security interests and activities, and security research activities, as provided under the standards and guidelines developed by the Director of the Office of Management and Budget under section 102(b)(1) of the No TikTok on Government Devices Act (division R of Public Law 117-828). (f) COVERED COMPANIES DEFINED.—~In this section, the term “covered company” means-— (1) ByteDance Limited, or any successor entity to ByteDance Limited, if ByteDanee Limited or the successor entity— (A) is involved in matters relating to the social networking service TikTok, or any successor service; or (B) is involved in matters relating to any information, videos, or data associated with such service; or (2) any entity owned by ByteDance Limited or the successor entity that— (A) is involved in matters relating to the social networking service TikTok, or any successor service; or (B) is involved in matters relating to any information, videos, or data associated with such service. SEC. 8. REPORT ON THREATS TO NATIONAL SECURITY POSED BY TIKTOK. (a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 120 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Director of National Intelligence, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, the Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastrueture Security Agency, the Secretary of Homeland Security, and the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, shall submit to Congress a report on the threats to national security posed by TikTok, including the following: (1) The ability of the Government of the People’s Republic of China to access, directly or indirectly, data of users in the United States via TikTok. (2) The ability of the Government of the People’s Republic of China to use data of users in the United States, including that of members of the Armed Forees, accessed via TikTok for intelligence or military purposes, including surveillance, microtargeting, deepfakes, or blackmail. (3) Any ongoing efforts by the Government of the People’s Republic of China to monitor or manipulate United States persons using data accessed via TikTok, including a detailed account of any data employed for those purposes. (b) Form.—The report, required by subsection (a) shall be submitted in unclassified form, but may contain a classified annex. SEC. 4. BRIEFING. Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Director of National Intelligence shall provide to Congress a classified briefing on the implementation of this Act, which shall include a briefing on the report required by section 3(a).
- germamme 4y agoMaybe I'm too dumb to get this but as far as I'm concerned the only thing TikTok threatens is our productivity and the market dominance of silicon valley. They don't have your social graph or your personal information because they don't need it. They can serve you content based only on what you watch How is this app a national security threat?
- ding_dang 4y agoQuestion for HN: For those of us who support certain pro-“Sino” policies, such as the three child policy that recently came into effect, the shunning of male media celebrities that are too effeminate or just aren’t culturally good for longevity of the country/species, and of course using something like TikTok to subvert adversarial countries by soft-power influence, what are our options for websites where we can candidly discuss this without being downvoted? HN isn’t a place for this at all and we’d just get flagged to oblivion. Does anyone know of any such platform in the Western/English speaking world? Don’t get me wrong, I completely oppose the Muslim genocide currently under way. But if somebody presented me with a list of party points like the ones I described, I’d show up to the voting booth before the polls open.
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- ding_dang 4y agoTo the poster who removed their comment - the Sino part is in quotes because these policies are associated with China, but in and of themselves could have come from any country, so I’m using China as a placeholder more than anything.
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- wkat4242 4y agoI'm proud to be somewhat effeminate :3 And to be living in a country where I can be who I want to be.