8 ms·

Why is Israel neutral amid the Russia-Ukraine war?

13 points by nhchris 4y ago

jononor 4y ago
This is behind a paywall?
- beardyw 4y ago
  Yes and unarchivable. We will never know.
labrador 4y ago
I can't read the article but on Twitter someone commented that it's because Russia could cause Israel a lot of trouble in Syria and Iran could cause them a lot of trouble in Lebanon, so Israel can't help Ukraine without suffering casualties. I don't know how true it is, but it makes sense.
fromseashore 4y ago
Perhaps it is also because the Soviet Army liberated Auschwitz. And made the immense sacrifice to defeat the nazi reich, while Britain and US waited till 1944 to open the second front in Europe.
- helge9210 4y ago
  Soviet Union was an ally to Third Reich up to 1941.
  - fromseashore 4y ago
    Half truth is worse than a lie. But without half truths, what would happen to US efforts to rewrite the history? Everyone in Europe knew in 1945 who defeated the nazis. And it was neither US nor Britain.
    - jmpman 4y ago
      How is this a half truth? Soviet Union was allied with the Nazis, until the Nazis turned on them. Or is something else taught in Russia?
      - tguvot 4y ago
        well... recently there been serious cleanup of history. this part is neglected and if somebody tries to say opposite they will be charged with glorification of nazism or with "altering historical truth about russia's win in wwII" (or something like this)
      - fromseashore 4y ago
        Why don't you try to read the russian version of the wikipedia article on the Ribbentrop Molotov agreement? It is not as short as the catchy phrase "USSR and Germany were allies before 1941", but I think it gives a fuller picture of the events. And while we are speaking about nazi allies here is one of the many links about the ties US had with nazi germany: https://therealnews.com/d-day-how-the-us-supported-hitlers-rise-to-power https://therealnews.com/d-day-how-the-us-supported-hitlers-r... And then there is also the british royal family. In my view, this gives a fuller description of the reality back then .
        jmpman 4y ago
        https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Польский_поход_РККА_(1939)?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Польский_похо... The way I read it, the Soviet Union partnered with Nazi Germany to invade Poland. This wasn’t the Soviet Union invading Poland to protect Poland against the Nazi invasion. The Soviet Union attacked Poland and fought the Polish army in order to split Polish territories with Nazi Germany. Not sure how that compares to Ford/IBM selling equipment to the Nazi regime prior to hostilities.
        ghostwriter 4y ago
        Don't forget Munich Agreement [1] that had happened a year before the respective strategic move on the part of USSR. There's no moral stance to hold against another nation's attemt to get a favourable position (for themselves) if it happens in a wake of and in accordance to their geo-political opponents' moves. The rest of Europe had been acting the same way whilst being busy preparing for a newly emerging conflict. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
- sidibe 4y ago
  A Soviet army made up of also Ukrainians who suffered bigger losses proportionally than Russia.
  - fromseashore 4y ago
    Soviet army was not dividing people by nationality, they were all "soviet people".So why do you choose to do so now? (Actually, a rhetorical question).
    - sidibe 4y ago
      Well there are estimates on Wikipedia but it's wrong to attribute WW2 sacrifice and victory of the USSR to one side of the current conflict.
      - fromseashore 4y ago
        I did not do that. But the fact is that Ukraine rehabilitates Bandera and other murderers and nazi collaborationists, has armed forces where people tatoo swastics on their skin, and has been promoting vicious antirussian sentiment well before 2014, ignored by the western media for a well understood reason (if we drop hypocrisy). All this while for Russia the Second World War was and is one of the defining moments of their history and identity.
        catmiral 4y ago
        Bandera was jailed by Nazi for almost the whole duration of the war (1941-1945). His brother was murdered in German stalag. It doesn't look like collaboration with Nazi. Soviet Union and Germany attacked Poland together (and started WWII). It's cooperation with Nazi. If we look at the argument often used by Russians, that X is Nazi because he collaborated with Nazi, and then apply it to Soviet Union instead of Bandera, then Russians found thousands of arguments why this is not true.
        ghostwriter 4y ago
helge9210 4y ago
As both Ukrainian and Israeli I have an opinion on this. If Israel supports Ukraine, it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem. If Israel supports Russia, it will risk to lose the support of USA (like Iraq after being ally of USA against Iran). Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians).
- tguvot 4y ago
  >If Israel supports Ukraine, it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem Literally, LOL. >Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians). You seems to conflate russian speaking with russians. I lived in Israel for 25 years, and now I tried to recalled how many people from Russia proper I know, and I cant even reach count of 5. Besides this, russian speaking politicians (all 3 or 5 of them ? most if not all of them not from russia) have no weight in Israel politics, especially in such a strategic decisions. As good example will be a strategic decision of smaller degree, when Gazprom wanted to get into partnerships in gas drilling companies in Israel but was booted out.
  - fromseashore 4y ago
    [flagged]
- weatherlite 4y ago
  > it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem. No one buys this claim who is important, not the U.S, not the E.U, not China and not even Russia. Israel knows this very well, so I doubt that's the reason. Even many Israelis probably don't buy into this claim, they want to hold on to the territories due to security reasons and what happened after the Gaza withdrawal. > Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape Significant amount? Do you have some data to support this? You're also suggesting they are all Putin supporters which sounds like a reach to me. Many of them came to Israel not loving the Russian totalitarian experience.
tguvot 4y ago
Article is paywalled, yet... Israel spent a lot of effort over past 20 years in preventing russia from supplying Iran and Syria with modern air-defense systems like S400 and portable anti-tank/aircraft systems as they tend to quickly end up in hands of hamas and hezballah. Sending any type of weapons to Ukraine will most likely result in russia paying back in the same coin, hence all of the visible assistance to Ukraine is humanitarian aid. There is also invisible aid, as Israeli ambassador to Germany stated last week, but it's invisible. There is also an issue of russia in Syria, where it can interfere with local Israeli operations. And once in a while russia just for giggles jams signals over north Israe.
unpopdontcare 4y ago
Israel is attack Iran's weapons manufacturing capacity, which is a help. Otherwise? The answer is money. Almost every russian oligarch has bought Israeli citizenship. Israel doesn't need to take sides It knows that Americans will never, ever, ever, ever enact any policies against Israel, because the political blowback would end their careers. We will always give welfare to Israel's army, and we will always make decisions in favor of Israel which are against American interests. Israel knows there is good money to be made here.
morpheos137 4y ago
Maybe because it is not in their national interest to pick a side?

13 points by nhchris 4y ago

jononor 4y ago

This is behind a paywall?

beardyw 4y ago
Yes and unarchivable. We will never know.

labrador 4y ago

I can't read the article but on Twitter someone commented that it's because Russia could cause Israel a lot of trouble in Syria and Iran could cause them a lot of trouble in Lebanon, so Israel can't help Ukraine without suffering casualties. I don't know how true it is, but it makes sense.

fromseashore 4y ago

Perhaps it is also because the Soviet Army liberated Auschwitz. And made the immense sacrifice to defeat the nazi reich, while Britain and US waited till 1944 to open the second front in Europe.

helge9210 4y ago
Soviet Union was an ally to Third Reich up to 1941.
- fromseashore 4y ago
  Half truth is worse than a lie. But without half truths, what would happen to US efforts to rewrite the history? Everyone in Europe knew in 1945 who defeated the nazis. And it was neither US nor Britain.
  - jmpman 4y ago
    How is this a half truth? Soviet Union was allied with the Nazis, until the Nazis turned on them. Or is something else taught in Russia?
    - tguvot 4y ago
      well... recently there been serious cleanup of history. this part is neglected and if somebody tries to say opposite they will be charged with glorification of nazism or with "altering historical truth about russia's win in wwII" (or something like this)
    - fromseashore 4y ago
      Why don't you try to read the russian version of the wikipedia article on the Ribbentrop Molotov agreement? It is not as short as the catchy phrase "USSR and Germany were allies before 1941", but I think it gives a fuller picture of the events. And while we are speaking about nazi allies here is one of the many links about the ties US had with nazi germany: https://therealnews.com/d-day-how-the-us-supported-hitlers-rise-to-power https://therealnews.com/d-day-how-the-us-supported-hitlers-r... And then there is also the british royal family. In my view, this gives a fuller description of the reality back then .
      - jmpman 4y ago
        https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Польский_поход_РККА_(1939)?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Польский_похо... The way I read it, the Soviet Union partnered with Nazi Germany to invade Poland. This wasn’t the Soviet Union invading Poland to protect Poland against the Nazi invasion. The Soviet Union attacked Poland and fought the Polish army in order to split Polish territories with Nazi Germany. Not sure how that compares to Ford/IBM selling equipment to the Nazi regime prior to hostilities.
        ghostwriter 4y ago
        Don't forget Munich Agreement [1] that had happened a year before the respective strategic move on the part of USSR. There's no moral stance to hold against another nation's attemt to get a favourable position (for themselves) if it happens in a wake of and in accordance to their geo-political opponents' moves. The rest of Europe had been acting the same way whilst being busy preparing for a newly emerging conflict. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
sidibe 4y ago
A Soviet army made up of also Ukrainians who suffered bigger losses proportionally than Russia.
- fromseashore 4y ago
  Soviet army was not dividing people by nationality, they were all "soviet people".So why do you choose to do so now? (Actually, a rhetorical question).
  - sidibe 4y ago
    Well there are estimates on Wikipedia but it's wrong to attribute WW2 sacrifice and victory of the USSR to one side of the current conflict.
    - fromseashore 4y ago
      I did not do that. But the fact is that Ukraine rehabilitates Bandera and other murderers and nazi collaborationists, has armed forces where people tatoo swastics on their skin, and has been promoting vicious antirussian sentiment well before 2014, ignored by the western media for a well understood reason (if we drop hypocrisy). All this while for Russia the Second World War was and is one of the defining moments of their history and identity.
      - catmiral 4y ago
        Bandera was jailed by Nazi for almost the whole duration of the war (1941-1945). His brother was murdered in German stalag. It doesn't look like collaboration with Nazi. Soviet Union and Germany attacked Poland together (and started WWII). It's cooperation with Nazi. If we look at the argument often used by Russians, that X is Nazi because he collaborated with Nazi, and then apply it to Soviet Union instead of Bandera, then Russians found thousands of arguments why this is not true.
        ghostwriter 4y ago

helge9210 4y ago

As both Ukrainian and Israeli I have an opinion on this. If Israel supports Ukraine, it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem. If Israel supports Russia, it will risk to lose the support of USA (like Iraq after being ally of USA against Iran). Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians).

tguvot 4y ago
>If Israel supports Ukraine, it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem Literally, LOL. >Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians). You seems to conflate russian speaking with russians. I lived in Israel for 25 years, and now I tried to recalled how many people from Russia proper I know, and I cant even reach count of 5. Besides this, russian speaking politicians (all 3 or 5 of them ? most if not all of them not from russia) have no weight in Israel politics, especially in such a strategic decisions. As good example will be a strategic decision of smaller degree, when Gazprom wanted to get into partnerships in gas drilling companies in Israel but was booted out.
- fromseashore 4y ago
  [flagged]
weatherlite 4y ago
> it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem. No one buys this claim who is important, not the U.S, not the E.U, not China and not even Russia. Israel knows this very well, so I doubt that's the reason. Even many Israelis probably don't buy into this claim, they want to hold on to the territories due to security reasons and what happened after the Gaza withdrawal. > Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape Significant amount? Do you have some data to support this? You're also suggesting they are all Putin supporters which sounds like a reach to me. Many of them came to Israel not loving the Russian totalitarian experience.

tguvot 4y ago

Article is paywalled, yet... Israel spent a lot of effort over past 20 years in preventing russia from supplying Iran and Syria with modern air-defense systems like S400 and portable anti-tank/aircraft systems as they tend to quickly end up in hands of hamas and hezballah. Sending any type of weapons to Ukraine will most likely result in russia paying back in the same coin, hence all of the visible assistance to Ukraine is humanitarian aid. There is also invisible aid, as Israeli ambassador to Germany stated last week, but it's invisible. There is also an issue of russia in Syria, where it can interfere with local Israeli operations. And once in a while russia just for giggles jams signals over north Israe.

unpopdontcare 4y ago

Israel is attack Iran's weapons manufacturing capacity, which is a help. Otherwise? The answer is money. Almost every russian oligarch has bought Israeli citizenship. Israel doesn't need to take sides It knows that Americans will never, ever, ever, ever enact any policies against Israel, because the political blowback would end their careers. We will always give welfare to Israel's army, and we will always make decisions in favor of Israel which are against American interests. Israel knows there is good money to be made here.

morpheos137 4y ago

Maybe because it is not in their national interest to pick a side?