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> But M1 did provide fundamental increase in performance. No it didn't. Look at the Mac mini benchmarks.[0] It is a smooth curve of increasing performance from

> But M1 did provide fundamental increase in performance. No it didn't. Look at the Mac mini benchmarks.[0] It is a smooth curve of increasing performance from the oldest models up to the M1. Performance is increasing faster, as should be expected, but the increases in performance from model to model are incremental, always resulting in "experts" being surprised and disappointed. M1 Mac mini is not ten or five times faster than the 2018 Mac mini, and not even twice as fast. It is 26% faster in multicore performance and 36% faster in single core performance. These are increments, not massive leaps in performance. [0] https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac-mini-late-2020 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac-mini-late-2020

ericmay 4y ago
I'm not sure if this changes anything here but when I think about performance at least for laptops but even for other products I think not just actual CPU operations but energy efficiency as well. I do agree that Apple's CPU releases are incremental updates (and mostly always have been), but when I used an M-series Mac for the first time it was a step grade upgrade from the previous gen even if it's somehow not accounted for in CPU performance metrics (though I think it will be if you account for energy as well).
- Maursault 4y ago
  > I think not just actual CPU operations but energy efficiency as well. Since when? Seriously. Since the first Apple Silicon release, undoubtedly.
  - 2fast4you 4y ago
    Yup. Apple really set the bar. I’ve never expected battery life like this from my laptop. Now that I know I can get the same(or better) performance with much higher efficiency, I’m never going back. My laptop doesn’t heat up anymore. It doesn’t die. If it has fans, they’re absolutely silent. All this, and I haven’t had to change my workload at all.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      No one cared (not entirely true, but for most) until Apple made power efficiency relevant. There were efficient processors prior to Apple Silicon. No one (again, exaggerating) cared until Apple made them care.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - nordsieck 4y ago
        > No one cared (not entirely true, but for most) until Apple made power efficiency relevant. There were efficient processors prior to Apple Silicon. No one (again, exaggerating) cared until Apple made them care. I don't think that's really true. The major cause for the failure of the macbook was a lack of power efficiency. Intel just didn't make a performant enough low power chip to make the concept work outside of a small group of people who value portability over everything else. But even beyond that, there have been frequent complaints of Apple's laptops running hot. Those complaints don't necessarily show up in benchmark numbers, but I've run across them many, many times.
        Maursault 4y ago
        If by failure you mean the best selling laptop of its model year, sure.
        tomnipotent 4y ago
        > The major cause for the failure of the macbook was a lack of power efficiency In what world or category did the Macbook fail? It's consistently top selling and top rated.
        wtallis 4y ago
        I think he's referring specifically to the most recent machine branded simply MacBook, with no Air or Pro suffix. That was a 12" fanless notebook introduced in 2015, a few years before the MacBook Air got a Retina Display upgrade.
Msw242 4y ago
36% increase inbetween generations is absolutely massive though Prior steps were about 10% or less.
- Maursault 4y ago
  It is an incremental increase in performance compared to the last incremental release. Performance increases should get larger and larger, and more and more frequently, that is how computing technology advances, along a logarithmic curve yet bounded by Moore's Law and the limits of what can be done with the technology of the hour. But there was never once a 100% increase in performance or even a 50% increase in performance between one model and its immediate next revision. And that many seem to be expecting this is tremendously unrealistic.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    A consistent 10% improvement at a regular cadence is already exponential growth. Ever-increasing improvements at an ever-increasing frequency would look exponential on a log plot. I don't know how you could possibly expect that and then complain that other people are crazy for expecting exponential growth.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      For the last 5 years and the next 5, I expect less than 30% performance increases from one gen model to the next. But it took 20 years to get to that level. A decade ago it was 15% increases in performance between gens.
threeseed 4y ago
Mac mini is a poor example to use here since it was not thermally throttled to nearly the same extent, if at all, as the MacBook Pro.
- Maursault 4y ago
  Choose any other model. It is true for all of them, always. Though performance gains are getting larger and larger over time, each subsequent release of any model is an incremental performance bump from the last. Not just true with Apple hw, true for all hw. IOW, we have not seen a leap in performance of 100% or even 50%, from one model to its next revision, and idk that we will.
  - fifafu 4y ago
    that's just not true. Take any of the last Macbook Pro Intel (maxed out) models and compare it to a similarly priced M1 Max. The difference in real world usage is night and day - although a lot of it is caused by the horrible thermal throttling, that made the Intel models almost unusable. It was definitely the biggest performance boost I have ever seen going from one generation to the next. Example: On the last Intel MBP I could barely run Teams with video, the Intel Macbooks (I tried many) got immediately super hot and started throttling to a point that made the machines unusable. The M1 Max doesn't even turn on the fan.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > Take any of the last Macbook Pro Intel (maxed out) models and compare it to a similarly priced M1 Max. What you have done is leap frog a couple generations there. Compare the benchmarks[0] of one model of the last Intel MBP, say the 2019 13" MBP (MacBookPro15,4) and the very next generation of that model, the 13" 2020 M1 MBP (MacBookPro17,1) and you will see it is an incremental increase in performance, a 36% performance increase in single core and a 40% increase in multicore performance. Impressive, but these are not exponential gains in performance nor even a doubling of performance, like what everyone seems to expect between the benchmarks of M1 and M2, and in fact this foolishness is not new, and has been going on since 68k models were new, all through the PPC era, into the Intel era up to today. [0] https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-pro-13-inch-retina-intel-core-i7-3520m-2-9-ghz-2-cores https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-pro-13-inch-retin...
fredoliveira 4y ago
Are you looking at the link you posted? A 36% (quoting your number) single-core increase over the 2018 model would mean a score jump from 1098 to 1493. The real number is 1715 (a 56% increase instead). You may argue that's just incremental too, but what would your threshold be? And let's be honest — synthetic benchmarks are bullshit. In this thread, you have a number of different people describing their experience of how much the perceived performance gains were, and how they didn't feel incremental. You are bending over backwards to try and dismiss those, and I don't get why. My perception, between having a maxed out 16" Intel MBP and getting an M1 mini at the time, was nothing short of "holy shit, this thing smokes my $4000 machine". Call it incremental; call it whatever feels right to you, but I know what it felt like. My sample size of 1 analysis is: it was not incremental at all. (An aside: M1 to M2? definitely incremental.)
indymike 4y ago
I agree that claims of 5x and 10x are probably exaggerated a bit. An awful lot of people were trading in a dual core i5 (Air), or a quad core i3 (mini) or i5 (MBP or Mini) for an M1. You could pay more for a six core i5 or i7 in the mini, and those models performed much better than the lower price points... Coming from the lower end of the product line, the M1 was an incredible upgrade, and the price point really didn't change (I paid 997 for the Intel, $949 for the M1). I swapped an Intel Air for a M1 Air, and could build Go and Node apps in 25% of the time it took the Intel Air... and could do so all day on battery.

ericmay 4y ago

I'm not sure if this changes anything here but when I think about performance at least for laptops but even for other products I think not just actual CPU operations but energy efficiency as well. I do agree that Apple's CPU releases are incremental updates (and mostly always have been), but when I used an M-series Mac for the first time it was a step grade upgrade from the previous gen even if it's somehow not accounted for in CPU performance metrics (though I think it will be if you account for energy as well).

Maursault 4y ago
> I think not just actual CPU operations but energy efficiency as well. Since when? Seriously. Since the first Apple Silicon release, undoubtedly.
- 2fast4you 4y ago
  Yup. Apple really set the bar. I’ve never expected battery life like this from my laptop. Now that I know I can get the same(or better) performance with much higher efficiency, I’m never going back. My laptop doesn’t heat up anymore. It doesn’t die. If it has fans, they’re absolutely silent. All this, and I haven’t had to change my workload at all.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    No one cared (not entirely true, but for most) until Apple made power efficiency relevant. There were efficient processors prior to Apple Silicon. No one (again, exaggerating) cared until Apple made them care.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nordsieck 4y ago
      > No one cared (not entirely true, but for most) until Apple made power efficiency relevant. There were efficient processors prior to Apple Silicon. No one (again, exaggerating) cared until Apple made them care. I don't think that's really true. The major cause for the failure of the macbook was a lack of power efficiency. Intel just didn't make a performant enough low power chip to make the concept work outside of a small group of people who value portability over everything else. But even beyond that, there have been frequent complaints of Apple's laptops running hot. Those complaints don't necessarily show up in benchmark numbers, but I've run across them many, many times.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        If by failure you mean the best selling laptop of its model year, sure.
      - tomnipotent 4y ago
        > The major cause for the failure of the macbook was a lack of power efficiency In what world or category did the Macbook fail? It's consistently top selling and top rated.
        wtallis 4y ago
        I think he's referring specifically to the most recent machine branded simply MacBook, with no Air or Pro suffix. That was a 12" fanless notebook introduced in 2015, a few years before the MacBook Air got a Retina Display upgrade.

Msw242 4y ago

36% increase inbetween generations is absolutely massive though Prior steps were about 10% or less.

Maursault 4y ago
It is an incremental increase in performance compared to the last incremental release. Performance increases should get larger and larger, and more and more frequently, that is how computing technology advances, along a logarithmic curve yet bounded by Moore's Law and the limits of what can be done with the technology of the hour. But there was never once a 100% increase in performance or even a 50% increase in performance between one model and its immediate next revision. And that many seem to be expecting this is tremendously unrealistic.
- thfuran 4y ago
  A consistent 10% improvement at a regular cadence is already exponential growth. Ever-increasing improvements at an ever-increasing frequency would look exponential on a log plot. I don't know how you could possibly expect that and then complain that other people are crazy for expecting exponential growth.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    For the last 5 years and the next 5, I expect less than 30% performance increases from one gen model to the next. But it took 20 years to get to that level. A decade ago it was 15% increases in performance between gens.

threeseed 4y ago

Mac mini is a poor example to use here since it was not thermally throttled to nearly the same extent, if at all, as the MacBook Pro.

Maursault 4y ago
Choose any other model. It is true for all of them, always. Though performance gains are getting larger and larger over time, each subsequent release of any model is an incremental performance bump from the last. Not just true with Apple hw, true for all hw. IOW, we have not seen a leap in performance of 100% or even 50%, from one model to its next revision, and idk that we will.
- fifafu 4y ago
  that's just not true. Take any of the last Macbook Pro Intel (maxed out) models and compare it to a similarly priced M1 Max. The difference in real world usage is night and day - although a lot of it is caused by the horrible thermal throttling, that made the Intel models almost unusable. It was definitely the biggest performance boost I have ever seen going from one generation to the next. Example: On the last Intel MBP I could barely run Teams with video, the Intel Macbooks (I tried many) got immediately super hot and started throttling to a point that made the machines unusable. The M1 Max doesn't even turn on the fan.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > Take any of the last Macbook Pro Intel (maxed out) models and compare it to a similarly priced M1 Max. What you have done is leap frog a couple generations there. Compare the benchmarks[0] of one model of the last Intel MBP, say the 2019 13" MBP (MacBookPro15,4) and the very next generation of that model, the 13" 2020 M1 MBP (MacBookPro17,1) and you will see it is an incremental increase in performance, a 36% performance increase in single core and a 40% increase in multicore performance. Impressive, but these are not exponential gains in performance nor even a doubling of performance, like what everyone seems to expect between the benchmarks of M1 and M2, and in fact this foolishness is not new, and has been going on since 68k models were new, all through the PPC era, into the Intel era up to today. [0] https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-pro-13-inch-retina-intel-core-i7-3520m-2-9-ghz-2-cores https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-pro-13-inch-retin...

fredoliveira 4y ago

Are you looking at the link you posted? A 36% (quoting your number) single-core increase over the 2018 model would mean a score jump from 1098 to 1493. The real number is 1715 (a 56% increase instead). You may argue that's just incremental too, but what would your threshold be? And let's be honest — synthetic benchmarks are bullshit. In this thread, you have a number of different people describing their experience of how much the perceived performance gains were, and how they didn't feel incremental. You are bending over backwards to try and dismiss those, and I don't get why. My perception, between having a maxed out 16" Intel MBP and getting an M1 mini at the time, was nothing short of "holy shit, this thing smokes my $4000 machine". Call it incremental; call it whatever feels right to you, but I know what it felt like. My sample size of 1 analysis is: it was not incremental at all. (An aside: M1 to M2? definitely incremental.)

indymike 4y ago

I agree that claims of 5x and 10x are probably exaggerated a bit. An awful lot of people were trading in a dual core i5 (Air), or a quad core i3 (mini) or i5 (MBP or Mini) for an M1. You could pay more for a six core i5 or i7 in the mini, and those models performed much better than the lower price points... Coming from the lower end of the product line, the M1 was an incredible upgrade, and the price point really didn't change (I paid 997 for the Intel, $949 for the M1). I swapped an Intel Air for a M1 Air, and could build Go and Node apps in 25% of the time it took the Intel Air... and could do so all day on battery.