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Founder worship is a straightforward evolution of a general US/protestant (See Max Weber) worship of rich people. It's here to stay because that permeates US c

Founder worship is a straightforward evolution of a general US/protestant (See Max Weber) worship of rich people. It's here to stay because that permeates US culture completely. Most don't even notice it. I do because I was raised in a roman-catholic country rich people are not supposed to be worshipped - straightforward interpretation of the Bible. On the other hand when I read stories of Elon Musk the real-life Tony Spark whose by the sheer force of its genius brain is going to save Humanity by making it multi-galactic, that does remind me of the hagiographies I had to read when I was young - those unbelievable but nonetheless believed biographies of the saints of the catholic pantheon.

rabuse 4y ago
You think it's only the U.S. who worship rich people?
- anonyme-honteux 4y ago
  For example Bernard Arnault is currently the richest man on earth and the cult of Bernard Arnault in France is pretty much inexistant.
luckylion 4y ago
That's an interesting point. I'm from Germany and we definitely have founder worship here (but we have fewer founders, and these days a lot of the 'startups' are just projects by students looking for state subsidies, not private money) but we also have a lot of protestants. Is it not the same in Spain or Italy?
- anonyme-honteux 4y ago
  Max Weber's "Protestant Ethic" did not refer to the teaching of Luther that are mainstream in Germany but specifically to the Calvinists and Pietists that brought their value to the US. --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_S... When he discussed it in the Protestant Ethic, he used Lutheranism as the chief example of the unio mystica that contrasted sharply with the ascetic posture. Later he would associate "Luther, the symbolic exponent of bureaucratic despotism, with the ascetic hostility to Eros — an example of Weber's sporadic tendency to link together bureaucratic and ascetic modes of life and to oppose both from mystical and aristocratic perspectives." However, Weber saw the fulfillment of the Protestant ethic not in Lutheranism, which was too concerned with the reception of divine spirit in the soul, but in Calvinistic forms of Christianity.[6]: 32–33 The trend was carried further still in Pietism.
  - spiralx 4y ago
    The US definitely has always had a strong Calvinist bent to it and there's been discussion of the increasing influence of Calvinist thought amongst Evangelism in recent times - see "creeping Calvinism" as it's been called: http://targuman.org/2016/07/21/seeking-comfort-in-crisis-creeping-calvinism/ http://targuman.org/2016/07/21/seeking-comfort-in-crisis-cre... https://www.reformation21.org/mos/1517/creeping-calvinism https://www.reformation21.org/mos/1517/creeping-calvinism
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Interesting, thank you for pointing out that it wasn't necessarily about protestants in general. Which does beg the question though: given that Germany isn't Calvinist, and we still have founder worship, is Calvinism really the reason founders are worshiped in the US?
moomoo11 4y ago
I don’t think it’s about worshipping rich people as it is about worshipping success. The money is just a result of being successful. They are willing to look past the survivorship bias because let’s face it working for someone else always feels second class to doing something “on your own” (air quotes btw). People look to the survivors and see that it paid off in the end. They don’t need to bow down to no one and they’re able to exit the hamster wheel. Case in point I know of someone who sold their small company for like 20 million dollars. Peanuts compared to billion dollar exits but gargantuan for most regular people. This dude was apparently some regular dude who sold the company in his 40s and he basically quit and focuses full time on his family. No longer needs to work 40 plus hours a week nor play office politics. He’s set and so is his family.
- ip26 4y ago
  In support of your point, the worship is mostly directed at people who made money themselves. Maybe a small inheritance helped bootstrap them, but they have clearly accomplished something. By contrast, can you even name the heirs of the Rockefeller fortune?
- cratermoon 4y ago
  > worshipping success... The money is just a result of being successful. Except this still defines 'success' as "making a lot of money". If making money is a result of being successful, then if someone doesn't make a lot of money, can they be considered successful, and how? I challenge you to name three contemporary people worshipped as successful but aren't considered successful in terms of their net worth. Side note: A $20 million payoff is still rich and absolutely out of reach for most. A person working full-time at $15/hr could work for 600 years and still be $2 million short of $20 million.
  - moomoo11 4y ago
    of course I can. There are way too many researchers and scientists to list who I consider successful who aren’t multi millionaires. They are successful in a different context. The discussion was about worshipping startup founders and success was in that context. My point is that people like us (tech workers, assuming u might be one too) look up more to escaping the hamster wheel of promotion driven development and other bullshit in favor of just living life. Startups are a capitalist game. You don’t need to play it, you’re free to do something else.
rightbyte 4y ago
> protestant worship of rich people. What? The historically protestant countries are where social democracy have been the strongest, compared to catholic countries.
golemotron 4y ago
> Founder worship is a straightforward evolution of a general US/protestant (See Max Weber) worship of rich people. It's here to stay because that permeates US culture completely. Most don't even notice it. Conversely complaints about founder worship typically drip with ressentiment. It's funny how all of this anchors back to Nietzsche's expansive take on the influence of Christianity in Western culture.

rabuse 4y ago

You think it's only the U.S. who worship rich people?

anonyme-honteux 4y ago
For example Bernard Arnault is currently the richest man on earth and the cult of Bernard Arnault in France is pretty much inexistant.

luckylion 4y ago

That's an interesting point. I'm from Germany and we definitely have founder worship here (but we have fewer founders, and these days a lot of the 'startups' are just projects by students looking for state subsidies, not private money) but we also have a lot of protestants. Is it not the same in Spain or Italy?

anonyme-honteux 4y ago
Max Weber's "Protestant Ethic" did not refer to the teaching of Luther that are mainstream in Germany but specifically to the Calvinists and Pietists that brought their value to the US. --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_S... When he discussed it in the Protestant Ethic, he used Lutheranism as the chief example of the unio mystica that contrasted sharply with the ascetic posture. Later he would associate "Luther, the symbolic exponent of bureaucratic despotism, with the ascetic hostility to Eros — an example of Weber's sporadic tendency to link together bureaucratic and ascetic modes of life and to oppose both from mystical and aristocratic perspectives." However, Weber saw the fulfillment of the Protestant ethic not in Lutheranism, which was too concerned with the reception of divine spirit in the soul, but in Calvinistic forms of Christianity.[6]: 32–33 The trend was carried further still in Pietism.
- spiralx 4y ago
  The US definitely has always had a strong Calvinist bent to it and there's been discussion of the increasing influence of Calvinist thought amongst Evangelism in recent times - see "creeping Calvinism" as it's been called: http://targuman.org/2016/07/21/seeking-comfort-in-crisis-creeping-calvinism/ http://targuman.org/2016/07/21/seeking-comfort-in-crisis-cre... https://www.reformation21.org/mos/1517/creeping-calvinism https://www.reformation21.org/mos/1517/creeping-calvinism
- luckylion 4y ago
  Interesting, thank you for pointing out that it wasn't necessarily about protestants in general. Which does beg the question though: given that Germany isn't Calvinist, and we still have founder worship, is Calvinism really the reason founders are worshiped in the US?

moomoo11 4y ago

I don’t think it’s about worshipping rich people as it is about worshipping success. The money is just a result of being successful. They are willing to look past the survivorship bias because let’s face it working for someone else always feels second class to doing something “on your own” (air quotes btw). People look to the survivors and see that it paid off in the end. They don’t need to bow down to no one and they’re able to exit the hamster wheel. Case in point I know of someone who sold their small company for like 20 million dollars. Peanuts compared to billion dollar exits but gargantuan for most regular people. This dude was apparently some regular dude who sold the company in his 40s and he basically quit and focuses full time on his family. No longer needs to work 40 plus hours a week nor play office politics. He’s set and so is his family.

ip26 4y ago
In support of your point, the worship is mostly directed at people who made money themselves. Maybe a small inheritance helped bootstrap them, but they have clearly accomplished something. By contrast, can you even name the heirs of the Rockefeller fortune?
cratermoon 4y ago
> worshipping success... The money is just a result of being successful. Except this still defines 'success' as "making a lot of money". If making money is a result of being successful, then if someone doesn't make a lot of money, can they be considered successful, and how? I challenge you to name three contemporary people worshipped as successful but aren't considered successful in terms of their net worth. Side note: A $20 million payoff is still rich and absolutely out of reach for most. A person working full-time at $15/hr could work for 600 years and still be $2 million short of $20 million.
- moomoo11 4y ago
  of course I can. There are way too many researchers and scientists to list who I consider successful who aren’t multi millionaires. They are successful in a different context. The discussion was about worshipping startup founders and success was in that context. My point is that people like us (tech workers, assuming u might be one too) look up more to escaping the hamster wheel of promotion driven development and other bullshit in favor of just living life. Startups are a capitalist game. You don’t need to play it, you’re free to do something else.

rightbyte 4y ago

> protestant worship of rich people. What? The historically protestant countries are where social democracy have been the strongest, compared to catholic countries.

golemotron 4y ago

> Founder worship is a straightforward evolution of a general US/protestant (See Max Weber) worship of rich people. It's here to stay because that permeates US culture completely. Most don't even notice it. Conversely complaints about founder worship typically drip with ressentiment. It's funny how all of this anchors back to Nietzsche's expansive take on the influence of Christianity in Western culture.