6 ms·

No less irresponsible than charging a man with a felony over an obvious joke.

by Asooka 4y ago

ramraj07 4y ago
How is using fake IDs to board airplanes a joke? Only because we are mostly sure this particular man is an innocent manchild, but how exactly does that generalize?
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  If I understand it right what while the ID was 'fake' it had his real name on it. So it wasn't more 'fake' than your job ID card with the same data on it.
- crispyambulance 4y ago
  It was the mid 80's, well before 9-11. Airport security was far more lax. Everything was far more lax. There was no way to easily verify ID anyway.
  - dsomers 4y ago
    Exactly this. As late as the 2001 I could cross into the US from Canada with as little as my birth certificate, which I often did. That was just a cotton blended paper with tattered edges with some writing, and the crest of my province printed on it. There wasn’t even a photo on it! It was closer to writing, ‘I’m daniel plz let me in’ on a napkin, than it is to my passport of today with its photo, barcode, and RFID chip that they can cross reference their data base with.
    - rmason 4y ago
      Actually before 9-11 you could enter Canada with only a Michigan drivers license. I did it all the time, had friends in Windsor and I'd drive down just to have dinner with them. Now you need either a passport or a special Michigan drivers license. Last time I renewed in person after COVID I tried to get one. The lady behind the counter said you don't want one of those. I asked her why and she told me that I'd hold up the line behind me. Since I was renewing months after my license expired due to the office being closed at the beginning of COVID I didn't argue with her.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      As little as a birth certificate? You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. (In practice the vast majority using planes and boats at least probably do take a passport, I always did from the UK, but in theory you don't need one, so if you weren't planning to go elsewhere you wouldn't even need to get a passport.)
      - messe 4y ago
        > You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. For anybody unfamiliar with Europe, I just want to add that there aren't any checkpoints or border crossings, you just drive through or walk over. Half the time you won't even notice you're doing it. You're just supposed to have your ID on your person when you do. Ireland (and previously the UK) is the only major exception to this, as it's part of the common travel area alongside the UK. In practice, this doesn't make a huge difference when you're an Irish or EU citizen (it does if you're a tourist who needs a different visa to visit), as it's an island, and airlines require a form of ID to board anyway. When travelling from Ireland to Schengen, I usually have a passport in my carry on luggage as a backup, and take my passport-card (similar to a national ID card) in my wallet.
        dfawcus 4y ago
        I though the point of the Irish passport card was that it is a passport (not a national ID card), but that the only place where it is needed / accepted is in other EU MS (due to format, and lack of ability to be stamped)? Note - the EU includes a passport union, which has been in place since the EEC days. i.e. that there should be no need to also carry your passport, unless intending to travel on outwith the EU?
        messe 4y ago
        You're right there isn't any need to have the passport booklet when travelling within the EU. I have the passport card on me almost 100% of the time when I'm not at home, as it's kept in my wallet. So I use that when flying within the EU as well. However, when I'm traveling to somewhere that has a hotel safe, or somewhere secure enough to leave valuables, I'll bring the full passport booklet in my carry-on along with me, and leave it there when I go out. That way, in the unlikely event I should lose my wallet / passport card, I still have the full booklet to travel home on, rather than having to arrange emergency travel documents for the flight back. I haven't needed it yet, but I don't see the harm in also taking it. It's not as if it takes up an obscene amount of space in my carry-on luggage, nor am I risking losing it by carrying it on my person at all times. It's purely there for peace of mind, and a backup in the very unlikely event I need it.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      > There wasn’t even a photo on it! I mean, picture of a baby isn't exactly useful...
    - ramraj07 4y ago
      Sure, but no matter how far back in history you go this hasn’t applied to everyone. My dad had to jump through hoops to attend a conference in the states in the 90s. Including sitting in a line on the sidewalk in front of the US embassy for hours, as a well respected doctor in his 40s, curious what your thoughts are about that. Then I come to Canada in 2008 and hear people talk about all their trips to Europe and South America and they didn’t know what a visa meant. The world is a very unfair place, and first world people especially non-minorities never knew how bad it was for others. Perhaps post 2001 kind of leveled the Playing field in some ways.
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      > As late as the 2001 I could cross into the US from Canada with as little as my birth certificate, Growing up in Detroit in the 80s (which some people don't realize is right on the border with Canada -- and that you travel south across a bridge to get to Canada! look it up) -- we generally didn't even bring our birth certificate. which may be a testament to our social class -- they could ask for a birth certificate if they thought you seemed "suspicious" (which i'm sure is racially coded), but for 90%+ of crossings, and 100% of our crossings, it was a two question interview without showing any paperwork at all. "What is your citizenship? What is your purpose of travel? OK, go through." No showing of ID at all -- not even a driver's license! [And again, they could ask for ID -- a driver's license or birth certificate -- if they wanted. I am positive at least 9 out of 10 crossings they did not. I am indeed sure that the race and class appearance (and accent) of the crosser was significant]. We used to patriotically brag (in the time of the cold war and berlin wall) that this was how borders between two stable "free" countries, the US and Canada, could be, "the longest open border in the world". It makes me really sad to think about how much we have gotten used to living in a security state, that does not need to be that way.
      - jrochkind1 4y ago
        (I'm realizing in my memory that not only did you show no paperwork, for the majority of crossings for people they did not deem "suspicious", you didn't even provide your name at all. I guess they could have been recording your license plate, not sure if they were, but there was no record left of the individual people crossing).
    - jrumbut 4y ago
      Funny enough I went to Canada for a quick trip in with my (non-real ID) driver's license and birth certificate, stayed a couple extra days, and arrived back at the border just hours before the switchover to requiring a passport/real ID went into effect. I wonder what would have happened?
  - ksaj 4y ago
    Yes, it was a very different world than it is now. I had a 22 caliber rifle when I was a tween. That wasn't uncommon because I lived in the country, and you pretty much needed such things to scare coyotes and wolves off the yard without hurting them. Obviously it can kill them, but you don't actually shoot them - you shoot close enough they understand the sound from your gun, and the sound on the ground right in front of them. Pretty effective. It got jammed once, so I walked into town with it cocked open over my shoulder to get it fixed. They can't be fired when cocked open. Nobody batted an eye. Not that people did that all the time, but everyone knew everyone, and easily figured the story would turn out more simple and mundane than the optics. It was the early 80's and there was a lot less angst. And it was just a simple local hardware store that fixed it for me. By the 90's, that would never fly, and no hardware store would fix a kid's gun (or anyone's for that matter) in that very same town. By then you needed a Firearms Acquisition Cert, which no tween could possibly get. I used to buy cigarettes for my mom, too. That was also legal back then. The 80's was a sort of cross over period that way.
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      This is still a thing in some places. I am in a very rural area. It is not uncommon for hunters to get out of their vehicle at the gas station here with their rifles to reposition their gear. It would probably be unsettling to a tourist.
    - hindsightbias 4y ago
      Rifles in truck window gun racks was a thing. In my high school parking lot.
- MrPatan 4y ago
  Do you have to show your papers when you board a bus?
  - blowski 4y ago
    I used to have to show a photocard with my travel pass. It had a picture of a lemming on it and yet it was never rejected.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      You didn't have to do that though, you presumably could've paid cash or card or whatever for a single ticket? The photo I assume was just to stop people sharing a pass.
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    Yes, you have to now, actually, in most greyhounds in most cities within 100 miles of the US border.
    - iso1210 4y ago
      That's so sad in the "land of the free" Do you have to show photo ID when filling up with gas within 100 miles of the border?
      - klardotsh 4y ago
        Theoretically you can be immigration checked anywhere within 100 miles of any US border, which includes a huge majority of the populace. See https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- sneak 4y ago
  The fact that fake IDs work means that blacklisted people can board aircraft. This is true regardless of whether or not non-criminals like Woz can. A non-criminal using a fake ID is a victimless "crime", and as it is harmless, there is no moral issue with the performance of the act.
- joxel 4y ago
  Imagine simping for the TSA this hard
- stavros 4y ago
  It's interesting now normalized it's become to have to show your papers before boarding public transport.
- concordDance 4y ago
  Within-country airplane boarding shouldn't need ID. The security theatre procedures are the joke here. Showing fake IDs is harmless.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    In much of Europe that's still the case. You can use an electronic or home-printed boarding pass and travel within the Schegen Zone and not be checked otherwise. I've never tried to buy a ticket with false details though.
- KyeRussell 4y ago
  You only think that it’s not a joke because over 20 years ago some people committed the single most successful act of terrorism in recent history. Was Woz meant to look into the future and be mindful of your presumably American sensitivities?
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    I’m Indian and india had fairly strict airline procedures even before 2001. Because flight terrorism has a longer history than 9/11. Im curious how you concluded I might be too America focused when you ignored all the countries that has had to battle terrorism for much longer.
  - iso1210 4y ago
    Bush and the Congress in general certainly did commit the single most successful act of terrorism in recent history. I'm not sure how showing ID would have prevented that though. The US public brought it on themselves, and today's world is a world away from the hacking culture of the 1980s
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  Your word choice of "manchild" is really really weird. I don't see anything childish about the story, he's just a playful man.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  I don't recall if it was specifically 9/11 that it changed, but I definitely recall that you did not used to have show to ID to get on a plane at all. And at some early points when you did, it was more just like kind of informally showing you were the ticket-holder, not really about security. His "fake ID" saying he was a "laser inspector" is really just an employee ID for a very unsuccesful business he started, right? If they take an employee ID, what's the difference. it just... wasn't actually a big deal back then. But yeah, in general... it's kind of painful to remember how much less we interacted with security checkpoints 30 years ago, and how much we've gotten used to living in a security state. The phrase "show me your papers" used to be a kind of shorthand for the idea that in a "fascist" state threatening law enforcement is always asking you for ID, but in "America" we can live our lives without interacting with such security apparatus. I doubt people think about it like that, as we live it now too, it's totally normalized. that the reader may find it hard to believe that you didn't really have to show official ID to get on a plane, or that you could use a homemade employee ID... just demonstrates how normalized and forever-seeming the security state has become. Although last I checked, you could actually still fly without ID, you need to fill out a form and get extra screening/pat down. Don't know if the "Real ID" stuff has changed that or what.
  - iso1210 4y ago
    Still the case in the UK, no law saying you have to provide any ID on a domestic flight (although you'll need a boarding pass), certainly I don't whenever I fly domestically (rarely). Some airlines require ID for ticket purposes (to prevent you from selling your ticket to someone else). Flights between the UK and Ireland are a little trickier, you don't need a passport, as long as you can prove you are either British or Irish. If you don't have a photo ID you can fly from the UK to Belfast and then drive/train/bus to the Republic. The requirement for a passport and appropriate visa on international flights departing from the UK is I think solely an airline requirement, as if you land in a country you don't have a right to immigrate to the airline gets fined. If you're flying privately it's a different matter. Obviously you need a passport or other authority to travel when you get to the border of another country (Ireland being the obvious exception for the UK).
- ilyt 4y ago
  It's making a joke out of procedure to check ID that doesn't serve any purpose (even if it might be funny only to prankster) when even obvious fakes pass without problem.
- hyperhopper 4y ago
  How is it not a joke? It's something funny. There is no harm in it. You may argue, "what if he was a terrorist!" But he wasn't. He caused no harm here.

No less irresponsible than charging a man with a felony over an obvious joke.

by Asooka 4y ago

No less irresponsible than charging a man with a felony over an obvious joke.

How is using fake IDs to board airplanes a joke? Only because we are mostly sure this particular man is an innocent manchild, but how exactly does that generalize?

justsomehnguy 4y ago
If I understand it right what while the ID was 'fake' it had his real name on it. So it wasn't more 'fake' than your job ID card with the same data on it.
crispyambulance 4y ago
It was the mid 80's, well before 9-11. Airport security was far more lax. Everything was far more lax. There was no way to easily verify ID anyway.
- dsomers 4y ago
  Exactly this. As late as the 2001 I could cross into the US from Canada with as little as my birth certificate, which I often did. That was just a cotton blended paper with tattered edges with some writing, and the crest of my province printed on it. There wasn’t even a photo on it! It was closer to writing, ‘I’m daniel plz let me in’ on a napkin, than it is to my passport of today with its photo, barcode, and RFID chip that they can cross reference their data base with.
  - rmason 4y ago
    Actually before 9-11 you could enter Canada with only a Michigan drivers license. I did it all the time, had friends in Windsor and I'd drive down just to have dinner with them. Now you need either a passport or a special Michigan drivers license. Last time I renewed in person after COVID I tried to get one. The lady behind the counter said you don't want one of those. I asked her why and she told me that I'd hold up the line behind me. Since I was renewing months after my license expired due to the office being closed at the beginning of COVID I didn't argue with her.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    As little as a birth certificate? You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. (In practice the vast majority using planes and boats at least probably do take a passport, I always did from the UK, but in theory you don't need one, so if you weren't planning to go elsewhere you wouldn't even need to get a passport.)
    - messe 4y ago
      > You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. For anybody unfamiliar with Europe, I just want to add that there aren't any checkpoints or border crossings, you just drive through or walk over. Half the time you won't even notice you're doing it. You're just supposed to have your ID on your person when you do. Ireland (and previously the UK) is the only major exception to this, as it's part of the common travel area alongside the UK. In practice, this doesn't make a huge difference when you're an Irish or EU citizen (it does if you're a tourist who needs a different visa to visit), as it's an island, and airlines require a form of ID to board anyway. When travelling from Ireland to Schengen, I usually have a passport in my carry on luggage as a backup, and take my passport-card (similar to a national ID card) in my wallet.
      - dfawcus 4y ago
        I though the point of the Irish passport card was that it is a passport (not a national ID card), but that the only place where it is needed / accepted is in other EU MS (due to format, and lack of ability to be stamped)? Note - the EU includes a passport union, which has been in place since the EEC days. i.e. that there should be no need to also carry your passport, unless intending to travel on outwith the EU?
        messe 4y ago
        You're right there isn't any need to have the passport booklet when travelling within the EU. I have the passport card on me almost 100% of the time when I'm not at home, as it's kept in my wallet. So I use that when flying within the EU as well. However, when I'm traveling to somewhere that has a hotel safe, or somewhere secure enough to leave valuables, I'll bring the full passport booklet in my carry-on along with me, and leave it there when I go out. That way, in the unlikely event I should lose my wallet / passport card, I still have the full booklet to travel home on, rather than having to arrange emergency travel documents for the flight back. I haven't needed it yet, but I don't see the harm in also taking it. It's not as if it takes up an obscene amount of space in my carry-on luggage, nor am I risking losing it by carrying it on my person at all times. It's purely there for peace of mind, and a backup in the very unlikely event I need it.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    > There wasn’t even a photo on it! I mean, picture of a baby isn't exactly useful...
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    Sure, but no matter how far back in history you go this hasn’t applied to everyone. My dad had to jump through hoops to attend a conference in the states in the 90s. Including sitting in a line on the sidewalk in front of the US embassy for hours, as a well respected doctor in his 40s, curious what your thoughts are about that. Then I come to Canada in 2008 and hear people talk about all their trips to Europe and South America and they didn’t know what a visa meant. The world is a very unfair place, and first world people especially non-minorities never knew how bad it was for others. Perhaps post 2001 kind of leveled the Playing field in some ways.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    > As late as the 2001 I could cross into the US from Canada with as little as my birth certificate, Growing up in Detroit in the 80s (which some people don't realize is right on the border with Canada -- and that you travel south across a bridge to get to Canada! look it up) -- we generally didn't even bring our birth certificate. which may be a testament to our social class -- they could ask for a birth certificate if they thought you seemed "suspicious" (which i'm sure is racially coded), but for 90%+ of crossings, and 100% of our crossings, it was a two question interview without showing any paperwork at all. "What is your citizenship? What is your purpose of travel? OK, go through." No showing of ID at all -- not even a driver's license! [And again, they could ask for ID -- a driver's license or birth certificate -- if they wanted. I am positive at least 9 out of 10 crossings they did not. I am indeed sure that the race and class appearance (and accent) of the crosser was significant]. We used to patriotically brag (in the time of the cold war and berlin wall) that this was how borders between two stable "free" countries, the US and Canada, could be, "the longest open border in the world". It makes me really sad to think about how much we have gotten used to living in a security state, that does not need to be that way.
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      (I'm realizing in my memory that not only did you show no paperwork, for the majority of crossings for people they did not deem "suspicious", you didn't even provide your name at all. I guess they could have been recording your license plate, not sure if they were, but there was no record left of the individual people crossing).
  - jrumbut 4y ago
    Funny enough I went to Canada for a quick trip in with my (non-real ID) driver's license and birth certificate, stayed a couple extra days, and arrived back at the border just hours before the switchover to requiring a passport/real ID went into effect. I wonder what would have happened?
- ksaj 4y ago
  Yes, it was a very different world than it is now. I had a 22 caliber rifle when I was a tween. That wasn't uncommon because I lived in the country, and you pretty much needed such things to scare coyotes and wolves off the yard without hurting them. Obviously it can kill them, but you don't actually shoot them - you shoot close enough they understand the sound from your gun, and the sound on the ground right in front of them. Pretty effective. It got jammed once, so I walked into town with it cocked open over my shoulder to get it fixed. They can't be fired when cocked open. Nobody batted an eye. Not that people did that all the time, but everyone knew everyone, and easily figured the story would turn out more simple and mundane than the optics. It was the early 80's and there was a lot less angst. And it was just a simple local hardware store that fixed it for me. By the 90's, that would never fly, and no hardware store would fix a kid's gun (or anyone's for that matter) in that very same town. By then you needed a Firearms Acquisition Cert, which no tween could possibly get. I used to buy cigarettes for my mom, too. That was also legal back then. The 80's was a sort of cross over period that way.
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    This is still a thing in some places. I am in a very rural area. It is not uncommon for hunters to get out of their vehicle at the gas station here with their rifles to reposition their gear. It would probably be unsettling to a tourist.
  - hindsightbias 4y ago
    Rifles in truck window gun racks was a thing. In my high school parking lot.
MrPatan 4y ago
Do you have to show your papers when you board a bus?
- blowski 4y ago
  I used to have to show a photocard with my travel pass. It had a picture of a lemming on it and yet it was never rejected.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    You didn't have to do that though, you presumably could've paid cash or card or whatever for a single ticket? The photo I assume was just to stop people sharing a pass.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  Yes, you have to now, actually, in most greyhounds in most cities within 100 miles of the US border.
  - iso1210 4y ago
    That's so sad in the "land of the free" Do you have to show photo ID when filling up with gas within 100 miles of the border?
    - klardotsh 4y ago
      Theoretically you can be immigration checked anywhere within 100 miles of any US border, which includes a huge majority of the populace. See https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
sneak 4y ago
The fact that fake IDs work means that blacklisted people can board aircraft. This is true regardless of whether or not non-criminals like Woz can. A non-criminal using a fake ID is a victimless "crime", and as it is harmless, there is no moral issue with the performance of the act.
joxel 4y ago
Imagine simping for the TSA this hard
stavros 4y ago
It's interesting now normalized it's become to have to show your papers before boarding public transport.
concordDance 4y ago
Within-country airplane boarding shouldn't need ID. The security theatre procedures are the joke here. Showing fake IDs is harmless.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  In much of Europe that's still the case. You can use an electronic or home-printed boarding pass and travel within the Schegen Zone and not be checked otherwise. I've never tried to buy a ticket with false details though.
KyeRussell 4y ago
You only think that it’s not a joke because over 20 years ago some people committed the single most successful act of terrorism in recent history. Was Woz meant to look into the future and be mindful of your presumably American sensitivities?
- ramraj07 4y ago
  I’m Indian and india had fairly strict airline procedures even before 2001. Because flight terrorism has a longer history than 9/11. Im curious how you concluded I might be too America focused when you ignored all the countries that has had to battle terrorism for much longer.
- iso1210 4y ago
  Bush and the Congress in general certainly did commit the single most successful act of terrorism in recent history. I'm not sure how showing ID would have prevented that though. The US public brought it on themselves, and today's world is a world away from the hacking culture of the 1980s
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fxtentacle 4y ago
Your word choice of "manchild" is really really weird. I don't see anything childish about the story, he's just a playful man.
jrochkind1 4y ago
I don't recall if it was specifically 9/11 that it changed, but I definitely recall that you did not used to have show to ID to get on a plane at all. And at some early points when you did, it was more just like kind of informally showing you were the ticket-holder, not really about security. His "fake ID" saying he was a "laser inspector" is really just an employee ID for a very unsuccesful business he started, right? If they take an employee ID, what's the difference. it just... wasn't actually a big deal back then. But yeah, in general... it's kind of painful to remember how much less we interacted with security checkpoints 30 years ago, and how much we've gotten used to living in a security state. The phrase "show me your papers" used to be a kind of shorthand for the idea that in a "fascist" state threatening law enforcement is always asking you for ID, but in "America" we can live our lives without interacting with such security apparatus. I doubt people think about it like that, as we live it now too, it's totally normalized. that the reader may find it hard to believe that you didn't really have to show official ID to get on a plane, or that you could use a homemade employee ID... just demonstrates how normalized and forever-seeming the security state has become. Although last I checked, you could actually still fly without ID, you need to fill out a form and get extra screening/pat down. Don't know if the "Real ID" stuff has changed that or what.
- iso1210 4y ago
  Still the case in the UK, no law saying you have to provide any ID on a domestic flight (although you'll need a boarding pass), certainly I don't whenever I fly domestically (rarely). Some airlines require ID for ticket purposes (to prevent you from selling your ticket to someone else). Flights between the UK and Ireland are a little trickier, you don't need a passport, as long as you can prove you are either British or Irish. If you don't have a photo ID you can fly from the UK to Belfast and then drive/train/bus to the Republic. The requirement for a passport and appropriate visa on international flights departing from the UK is I think solely an airline requirement, as if you land in a country you don't have a right to immigrate to the airline gets fined. If you're flying privately it's a different matter. Obviously you need a passport or other authority to travel when you get to the border of another country (Ireland being the obvious exception for the UK).
ilyt 4y ago
It's making a joke out of procedure to check ID that doesn't serve any purpose (even if it might be funny only to prankster) when even obvious fakes pass without problem.
hyperhopper 4y ago
How is it not a joke? It's something funny. There is no harm in it. You may argue, "what if he was a terrorist!" But he wasn't. He caused no harm here.