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Unpopular opinion: schools have a responsibility to moderate (yes, censor) the media students consume. By default, the Internet is rated X. That's just a fact.

Unpopular opinion: schools have a responsibility to moderate (yes, censor) the media students consume. By default, the Internet is rated X. That's just a fact. Mainstream platforms pull any material that's explicitly pornographic, but there is a delay, and children will be exposerd to adult content. LGBTQ stands for "Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, and Queer" - which are both legitimate sexual identities and genres of pornography. If the software is confident it can distinguish between the very different meanings of "lesbian" vis-a-vis content, then great. But I don't believe that for a second. I have a child who is regularly exposed to terrible things online. It's like playing whack-a-mole. Schools are one of the big chinks in the armor. I can't control what she's exposed to there. If I couldn't afford private school, I couldn't even chose what school she went to. I'd be stuck with whatever policies the local public school has. We don't let any stranger just come on to the playground and chat with kids.

throwaway89713 4y ago
Parents have responsibility to teach children to self-moderate what content they consume. Yes, I mean even the youngest kids. Do they have access to the internet? If they want to see porn, they will see it - regardless of any content filters you put on. Kids are fully capable of using and understanding the need for and the high-level concepts behind VPNs by the time they are 7. They will get creative with their keywords and ways to see porn (e.g. erotic games that might not be caught by your filter). I've seen 10 year old kids use portable Tor browser to bypass school content filters. Anything else will lead to problems in later life (overconsumption of porn for example).
- pyuser583 4y ago
  At home, I block the internet at the router level - including VPNs. I also don’t give my daughter admin access. So even if she knew what a VPN was, she wouldn’t be able to use it.
  - throwaway89713 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure a motivated kid would just need some time to bypass your filter. Don't underestimate children. If they can access the web, they can access porn. You'd have to block all - including HTTP(S) - traffic and even that covers just what happens at home. It might be as simple as connecting to the neighbor's open WiFi, the local McDonalds public WiFi, or their best friend's mobile data plan or their unrestricted home WiFi. There are HTTP proxies operating via port 80/443, full with an app just like a VPN. I've seen a 10 year old kid use a free SSH shell account (via port 80) to proxy their traffic. There was another kid who just used a public cloud provider's free tier and had a full desktop environment running there, accessed via some web VNC interface - that one was 12 y/o though. Regardless, you're just putting off the inevitable - and then it will be like a whole new overwhelmingly fascinating world has just opened, which is not great for a young mind not yet fully capable of moderation because you didn't allow them to practice it. > I also don’t give my daughter admin access Kids can boot Linux from USB too.
    - aaomidi 4y ago
      Yeah I grew up in Iran. There’s really not much you can do to completely ban everything. All you’re doing is creating mistrust between you and your kids. Your kid is far far more susceptible to being groomed etc if you have draconian parenting policies.
      - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
        It's unlikely that a single paragraph covers OPs entire parenting method. At best we're seeing one small part. For all we know, they have regular conversations about why some content is blocked, thus making it more of a collaboration.
        progman32 4y ago
        Thanks for the reminder to remain curious. Perhaps OP would be interested in sharing more. This is a discussion site, after all. I'm honestly a little surprised that things have remained mostly civil in this discussion page. Credit to HN's culture and the moderation team.
lozenge 4y ago
This has nothing to do with censorship. It's about monitoring students' own speech. It's concerning that you only think "what if my child sees lesbian porn" and not "what if my child is blocked from learning about their own identity".
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  The internet is more likely to confuse people about their identity than to teach them anything about it.
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    That's a funny word for explore
    - throwntoday 4y ago
      You're the kind of person I don't want talking to my kids.
  - throwntoday 4y ago
    Exactly. You wouldn't want some stranger talking nonsense to your kids in person why should it be any different online.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  It's comcerning that you believe you have the authority to tell a parent how to parent *their* child. The parent can weigh the risks to their child. Let's just leave it at that.
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    If a parent says I spank my kid, are you still gonna side with the parent? How about if the parent says “in my culture the dad is the first sexual partner of the daughter”? How about then? (And yes. This is a real thing) So no if a parent says oh my kid can’t be lesbian or gay or whatever, they’re just wrong and should be called out. The same way we call out for physical violence, we should call out for mental violence.
29athrowaway 4y ago
That's why it has to be an allow list not a block list.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Yea! But the stupid school requires GSuite, which means I have to allow the whole Google ecosystem. It’s possible to view images and web pages from the Google domain. Also really bad stuff appears in Kids YouTube. It gets taken down fast, but that doesn’t seem to stop it.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    You mean YouTube Kids has questionable content?
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      Not just questionable content - horrific content. Google takes it down, but it pops back up.
      - 29athrowaway 4y ago
        Oh crap. I have not seen any yet, but thanks for the heads up.
        the_only_law 4y ago
        Look up Elsagate. It was the example that probably made it furthest into the public eye and has recently returned in a new, similar form.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
> By default, the Internet is rated X. That's just a fact. Mainstream platforms pull any material that's explicitly pornographic, but there is a delay, and children will be exposerd to adult content. This is a gross exaggeration. > LGBTQ stands for "Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, and Queer" - which are both legitimate sexual identities and genres of pornography. The "LGBTQ = sexualized content" dog whistle is so tiresome. > We don't let any stranger just come on to the playground and chat with kids. The vast majority of children are in danger from family members and friends of the family. "Stranger danger" by and large isn't a thing.
mhb 4y ago
This is a problem of being forced to pay for school without being able to choose the school. The solution is vouchers.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Or at the very least allowing you to go to any public school.
dghlsakjg 4y ago
Bad news. The world is x-rated Your kid can see whatever they want at most public libraries. Most libraries don’t censor internet connections. Constant surveillance and a lack of trust by authority figures is something far more concerning and damaging than seeing a naked person.
- pfarrell 4y ago
  A naked person is fine. A naked person is R rated compared to what is available.
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    I’m not worried about nudity. Nudity gets flagged fast. I’m worried about toxic content: there’s really, really toxic stuff on children’s social media. Stuff telling kids they’re stupid if they don’t get straight As, they’re ugly if they don’t look like super models, and will die of starvation if they don’t get into a FAANG. Every type of toxicity you find on adult social media exists on children’s social media. That’s what worried me.
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      You might as well just take them out of school because I promise you their peers can and will be even more “toxic” than that in person.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  > Your kid can see whatever they want at most public libraries. Most libraries don’t censor internet connections. Don't worry, the "think of the children" line of rhetoric has already invaded library systems, and books are getting banned and libraries are shutting down[1][2][3][4][5]. [1] https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-01-27/school-librarians-vilified-as-the-arm-of-satan-in-book-banning-wars https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-01-27/school-lib... [2] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/10/lgbtq-books-library-mi-defunded-jamestown/8323736001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/10/lgbtq-... [3] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/north-dakota-considering-ban-sexual-lgbt-centric-library-books https://www.foxnews.com/politics/north-dakota-considering-ba... [4] https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor-books-in-schools/ https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor... [5] https://time.com/6211350/public-libraries-book-bans/ https://time.com/6211350/public-libraries-book-bans/
sorry_outta_gas 4y ago
might as well let see this sort of content before they get shot by classmates or whatever
progman32 4y ago
If (by your example) "transgender" is a genre of pornography and is therefore worthy of censure, do you similarly claim that other identities often featured in adult entertainment (i.e. Italians, lumberjacks, nurses, etc) need to be filtered out unless some software can confidently determine context?
- the_only_law 4y ago
  Don’t forget the infamous family genres. Can’t google “mom” anymore. That’s a porn category. In fact, we might want to start spying on their texts to make sure they aren’t using words like that there either. Your kid might be into incest porn.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Or, going by some of the top categories on PH: Asian, babysitter, blonde, Brazilian, cartoon, celebrity, cosplay, feet, German, Japanese, vintage, webcam, etc.
aaomidi 4y ago
So what is up with our culture that regularly being exposed to violence, fucked up police, men trying to make decisions for the bodies of women is okay - but knowing that sex is a thing that exists and people have sex is bad? Literally have these parents been teens before? Did y’all have a puritan upbringing where you didn’t learn about sex or watch porn until 18? If you did, do you consider yourself a healthy adult with a reasonable relationship with sex?
LeonB 4y ago
Better block a whole host of other every day words too. Can’t have your child ever use the word “Asian” online, for their own good. Othering of LGBTQIA+ people does real harm, to which you seem to be either ignorant or indifferent.
- ahoya 4y ago
  I think you missed their point. They ale saying you cannot block these search terms.
jancsika 4y ago
> If the software is confident it can distinguish between the very different meanings of "lesbian" vis-a-vis content, then great. But I don't believe that for a second. Are you dogfooding the software? If not this is all just rank speculation.
aidenn0 4y ago
There are limits to what the school can do though. One of my kids' first exposure to hardcore pornography was in second grade on the personal iPhone of an older kid.

throwaway89713 4y ago

Parents have responsibility to teach children to self-moderate what content they consume. Yes, I mean even the youngest kids. Do they have access to the internet? If they want to see porn, they will see it - regardless of any content filters you put on. Kids are fully capable of using and understanding the need for and the high-level concepts behind VPNs by the time they are 7. They will get creative with their keywords and ways to see porn (e.g. erotic games that might not be caught by your filter). I've seen 10 year old kids use portable Tor browser to bypass school content filters. Anything else will lead to problems in later life (overconsumption of porn for example).

pyuser583 4y ago
At home, I block the internet at the router level - including VPNs. I also don’t give my daughter admin access. So even if she knew what a VPN was, she wouldn’t be able to use it.
- throwaway89713 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure a motivated kid would just need some time to bypass your filter. Don't underestimate children. If they can access the web, they can access porn. You'd have to block all - including HTTP(S) - traffic and even that covers just what happens at home. It might be as simple as connecting to the neighbor's open WiFi, the local McDonalds public WiFi, or their best friend's mobile data plan or their unrestricted home WiFi. There are HTTP proxies operating via port 80/443, full with an app just like a VPN. I've seen a 10 year old kid use a free SSH shell account (via port 80) to proxy their traffic. There was another kid who just used a public cloud provider's free tier and had a full desktop environment running there, accessed via some web VNC interface - that one was 12 y/o though. Regardless, you're just putting off the inevitable - and then it will be like a whole new overwhelmingly fascinating world has just opened, which is not great for a young mind not yet fully capable of moderation because you didn't allow them to practice it. > I also don’t give my daughter admin access Kids can boot Linux from USB too.
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Yeah I grew up in Iran. There’s really not much you can do to completely ban everything. All you’re doing is creating mistrust between you and your kids. Your kid is far far more susceptible to being groomed etc if you have draconian parenting policies.
    - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
      It's unlikely that a single paragraph covers OPs entire parenting method. At best we're seeing one small part. For all we know, they have regular conversations about why some content is blocked, thus making it more of a collaboration.
      - progman32 4y ago
        Thanks for the reminder to remain curious. Perhaps OP would be interested in sharing more. This is a discussion site, after all. I'm honestly a little surprised that things have remained mostly civil in this discussion page. Credit to HN's culture and the moderation team.

lozenge 4y ago

This has nothing to do with censorship. It's about monitoring students' own speech. It's concerning that you only think "what if my child sees lesbian porn" and not "what if my child is blocked from learning about their own identity".

Consultant32452 4y ago
The internet is more likely to confuse people about their identity than to teach them anything about it.
- kristopolous 4y ago
  That's a funny word for explore
  - throwntoday 4y ago
    You're the kind of person I don't want talking to my kids.
- throwntoday 4y ago
  Exactly. You wouldn't want some stranger talking nonsense to your kids in person why should it be any different online.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
It's comcerning that you believe you have the authority to tell a parent how to parent *their* child. The parent can weigh the risks to their child. Let's just leave it at that.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  If a parent says I spank my kid, are you still gonna side with the parent? How about if the parent says “in my culture the dad is the first sexual partner of the daughter”? How about then? (And yes. This is a real thing) So no if a parent says oh my kid can’t be lesbian or gay or whatever, they’re just wrong and should be called out. The same way we call out for physical violence, we should call out for mental violence.

29athrowaway 4y ago

That's why it has to be an allow list not a block list.

pyuser583 4y ago
Yea! But the stupid school requires GSuite, which means I have to allow the whole Google ecosystem. It’s possible to view images and web pages from the Google domain. Also really bad stuff appears in Kids YouTube. It gets taken down fast, but that doesn’t seem to stop it.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  You mean YouTube Kids has questionable content?
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    Not just questionable content - horrific content. Google takes it down, but it pops back up.
    - 29athrowaway 4y ago
      Oh crap. I have not seen any yet, but thanks for the heads up.
      - the_only_law 4y ago
        Look up Elsagate. It was the example that probably made it furthest into the public eye and has recently returned in a new, similar form.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

> By default, the Internet is rated X. That's just a fact. Mainstream platforms pull any material that's explicitly pornographic, but there is a delay, and children will be exposerd to adult content. This is a gross exaggeration. > LGBTQ stands for "Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, and Queer" - which are both legitimate sexual identities and genres of pornography. The "LGBTQ = sexualized content" dog whistle is so tiresome. > We don't let any stranger just come on to the playground and chat with kids. The vast majority of children are in danger from family members and friends of the family. "Stranger danger" by and large isn't a thing.

mhb 4y ago

This is a problem of being forced to pay for school without being able to choose the school. The solution is vouchers.

pyuser583 4y ago
Or at the very least allowing you to go to any public school.

dghlsakjg 4y ago

Bad news. The world is x-rated Your kid can see whatever they want at most public libraries. Most libraries don’t censor internet connections. Constant surveillance and a lack of trust by authority figures is something far more concerning and damaging than seeing a naked person.

pfarrell 4y ago
A naked person is fine. A naked person is R rated compared to what is available.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  I’m not worried about nudity. Nudity gets flagged fast. I’m worried about toxic content: there’s really, really toxic stuff on children’s social media. Stuff telling kids they’re stupid if they don’t get straight As, they’re ugly if they don’t look like super models, and will die of starvation if they don’t get into a FAANG. Every type of toxicity you find on adult social media exists on children’s social media. That’s what worried me.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    You might as well just take them out of school because I promise you their peers can and will be even more “toxic” than that in person.
heavyset_go 4y ago
> Your kid can see whatever they want at most public libraries. Most libraries don’t censor internet connections. Don't worry, the "think of the children" line of rhetoric has already invaded library systems, and books are getting banned and libraries are shutting down[1][2][3][4][5]. [1] https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-01-27/school-librarians-vilified-as-the-arm-of-satan-in-book-banning-wars https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-01-27/school-lib... [2] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/10/lgbtq-books-library-mi-defunded-jamestown/8323736001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/10/lgbtq-... [3] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/north-dakota-considering-ban-sexual-lgbt-centric-library-books https://www.foxnews.com/politics/north-dakota-considering-ba... [4] https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor-books-in-schools/ https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor... [5] https://time.com/6211350/public-libraries-book-bans/ https://time.com/6211350/public-libraries-book-bans/

sorry_outta_gas 4y ago

might as well let see this sort of content before they get shot by classmates or whatever

progman32 4y ago

If (by your example) "transgender" is a genre of pornography and is therefore worthy of censure, do you similarly claim that other identities often featured in adult entertainment (i.e. Italians, lumberjacks, nurses, etc) need to be filtered out unless some software can confidently determine context?

the_only_law 4y ago
Don’t forget the infamous family genres. Can’t google “mom” anymore. That’s a porn category. In fact, we might want to start spying on their texts to make sure they aren’t using words like that there either. Your kid might be into incest porn.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Or, going by some of the top categories on PH: Asian, babysitter, blonde, Brazilian, cartoon, celebrity, cosplay, feet, German, Japanese, vintage, webcam, etc.

aaomidi 4y ago

So what is up with our culture that regularly being exposed to violence, fucked up police, men trying to make decisions for the bodies of women is okay - but knowing that sex is a thing that exists and people have sex is bad? Literally have these parents been teens before? Did y’all have a puritan upbringing where you didn’t learn about sex or watch porn until 18? If you did, do you consider yourself a healthy adult with a reasonable relationship with sex?

LeonB 4y ago

Better block a whole host of other every day words too. Can’t have your child ever use the word “Asian” online, for their own good. Othering of LGBTQIA+ people does real harm, to which you seem to be either ignorant or indifferent.

ahoya 4y ago
I think you missed their point. They ale saying you cannot block these search terms.

jancsika 4y ago

> If the software is confident it can distinguish between the very different meanings of "lesbian" vis-a-vis content, then great. But I don't believe that for a second. Are you dogfooding the software? If not this is all just rank speculation.

aidenn0 4y ago

There are limits to what the school can do though. One of my kids' first exposure to hardcore pornography was in second grade on the personal iPhone of an older kid.