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No, it just means that norms should align with values. I have certain values and think that caring about aesthetics (personal appearance, nice architecture, cle

No, it just means that norms should align with values. I have certain values and think that caring about aesthetics (personal appearance, nice architecture, clean spaces, beautiful art) results in a society that is better for me and other people.

meheleventyone 4y ago
Yes, it’s your subjective opinion you want to force on everyone else but previously didn’t want to admit is the case because it shows there is no actual argument as to why anyone else should agree. Like the clashes over wearing headscarves in Iran where people are literally being killed an imprisoned over that subjective value disagreement. “Everyone should share my values” is essentially an extreme position.
- keiferski 4y ago
  Thinking that it’s beneficial for people to live in beautiful buildings without pollution is my subjective opinion?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    What is “beautiful” is, like, the textbook example of a subjective opinion.
    - keiferski 4y ago
      No, not really. The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic. As I said above, the people who think this stuff is entirely subjective tend to be ones that haven’t engaged much (or at all) with previous thought on the topic.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic Which is not incompatible with it being subjective. In fact, many of those “knoweldgeable and intelligent” people have written specifically on its subjectivity, and others explicitly on specific, e.g., of a specific culture and time, subjective standards.
      - uoaei 4y ago
        People who wax philosophical almost entirely about what the inherent subjectivity of aesthetics means for our experience as subjects, individually and collectively.
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        This line of reasoning is unsound because it attempts to universalize particulars wrt aesthetics. Universalizing particulars is what Lacan would call psychotic. The antidote here is a good dose hysterics.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    But you’ve changed the subject. We were discussing what people were wearing. And as obvious yes if you personally think that it’s very acutely your subjective opinion. You are literally telling us your opinion. You couldn’t get a clearer example of something that’s subjective. There’s a worrying level of philosophical paucity here.
__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
What should one do if they find that the aesthetic norms practiced by the people around them don't align with anyone's values? Is there room in your clean, well architected, art-endowed society for protest? If not, what keeps the norms in-line with the (presumably drifting) values?
kortilla 4y ago
>beautiful art Wow, you just keep digging deeper. Pray tell, what makes some art beautiful and other art not?

meheleventyone 4y ago

Yes, it’s your subjective opinion you want to force on everyone else but previously didn’t want to admit is the case because it shows there is no actual argument as to why anyone else should agree. Like the clashes over wearing headscarves in Iran where people are literally being killed an imprisoned over that subjective value disagreement. “Everyone should share my values” is essentially an extreme position.

keiferski 4y ago
Thinking that it’s beneficial for people to live in beautiful buildings without pollution is my subjective opinion?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  What is “beautiful” is, like, the textbook example of a subjective opinion.
  - keiferski 4y ago
    No, not really. The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic. As I said above, the people who think this stuff is entirely subjective tend to be ones that haven’t engaged much (or at all) with previous thought on the topic.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic Which is not incompatible with it being subjective. In fact, many of those “knoweldgeable and intelligent” people have written specifically on its subjectivity, and others explicitly on specific, e.g., of a specific culture and time, subjective standards.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      People who wax philosophical almost entirely about what the inherent subjectivity of aesthetics means for our experience as subjects, individually and collectively.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      This line of reasoning is unsound because it attempts to universalize particulars wrt aesthetics. Universalizing particulars is what Lacan would call psychotic. The antidote here is a good dose hysterics.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  But you’ve changed the subject. We were discussing what people were wearing. And as obvious yes if you personally think that it’s very acutely your subjective opinion. You are literally telling us your opinion. You couldn’t get a clearer example of something that’s subjective. There’s a worrying level of philosophical paucity here.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago

What should one do if they find that the aesthetic norms practiced by the people around them don't align with anyone's values? Is there room in your clean, well architected, art-endowed society for protest? If not, what keeps the norms in-line with the (presumably drifting) values?

kortilla 4y ago

>beautiful art Wow, you just keep digging deeper. Pray tell, what makes some art beautiful and other art not?