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Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really t

Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really thought much about the topic. Some people, including a lot of philosophers and art theorists that can be considered “experts”, disagree. I would consider myself in this camp, although not a credentialed expert by any means. And no, I’m not “projecting my aesthetic” on to others, simply defending the idea of norms and expectations. This is a very different thing. As I said in another comment, if you can’t get beyond the idea that Value is not entirely subjective and that everything isn’t just “your opinion, Dude,” then no argument is probably going to convince you of anything. Hence you will just end up in a situation like the OP posted about.

meheleventyone 4y ago
How do you know what the objectively correct attire is and how did you measure it? And if you don’t know what it is then why would you say pyjamas aren’t it? Norms and expectations have varied wildly not just geographically in the present day but over time as well. To the point it was and actually is common to physically harm people.
- keiferski 4y ago
  Just because multiple scales of value exist does not imply that all scales are equal or meaningless entirely.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    Right but that’s a non-answer because norms change over time and place and that can only happen if people are allowed to change them over time and place. All you’re saying is that it’s subjective in a clouded way. At best you’re basically being left behind the cultural norm and probably should catch up.
    - keiferski 4y ago
      No, it just means that norms should align with values. I have certain values and think that caring about aesthetics (personal appearance, nice architecture, clean spaces, beautiful art) results in a society that is better for me and other people.
      - meheleventyone 4y ago
        Yes, it’s your subjective opinion you want to force on everyone else but previously didn’t want to admit is the case because it shows there is no actual argument as to why anyone else should agree. Like the clashes over wearing headscarves in Iran where people are literally being killed an imprisoned over that subjective value disagreement. “Everyone should share my values” is essentially an extreme position.
        keiferski 4y ago
        Thinking that it’s beneficial for people to live in beautiful buildings without pollution is my subjective opinion?
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        What is “beautiful” is, like, the textbook example of a subjective opinion.
        keiferski 4y ago
        No, not really. The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic. As I said above, the people who think this stuff is entirely subjective tend to be ones that haven’t engaged much (or at all) with previous thought on the topic.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic Which is not incompatible with it being subjective. In fact, many of those “knoweldgeable and intelligent” people have written specifically on its subjectivity, and others explicitly on specific, e.g., of a specific culture and time, subjective standards.
bheadmaster 4y ago
Some people not only think that that aestethics is entirely objective (which may or may not be true), but also think that their perception is somehow authoritative on the matter! Their opinion is that everything they like is objectively beautiful, and everything they don't like is objectively ugly. How narcissistic do those people have to be to hold themselves in such an unrealistically high regard?
kortilla 4y ago
>Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really thought much about the topic. Don’t do this. It’s a weaseling way to claim the person you are discussing things with isn’t thinking. Do you think the following is fair? Some people think that freedom of expression in appearance is unimportant. This is the default view of authoritarian societies, especially among people who have not really thought much about the topic.
CJefferson 4y ago
You've made a massive leap here. Of course there is an argument that aesthetics aren't entirely subjective. Are there any noteworthy philosopher who says (in effect, obviously not this exactly) people shouldn't go around in pyjamas?

meheleventyone 4y ago

How do you know what the objectively correct attire is and how did you measure it? And if you don’t know what it is then why would you say pyjamas aren’t it? Norms and expectations have varied wildly not just geographically in the present day but over time as well. To the point it was and actually is common to physically harm people.

keiferski 4y ago
Just because multiple scales of value exist does not imply that all scales are equal or meaningless entirely.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  Right but that’s a non-answer because norms change over time and place and that can only happen if people are allowed to change them over time and place. All you’re saying is that it’s subjective in a clouded way. At best you’re basically being left behind the cultural norm and probably should catch up.
  - keiferski 4y ago
    No, it just means that norms should align with values. I have certain values and think that caring about aesthetics (personal appearance, nice architecture, clean spaces, beautiful art) results in a society that is better for me and other people.
    - meheleventyone 4y ago
      Yes, it’s your subjective opinion you want to force on everyone else but previously didn’t want to admit is the case because it shows there is no actual argument as to why anyone else should agree. Like the clashes over wearing headscarves in Iran where people are literally being killed an imprisoned over that subjective value disagreement. “Everyone should share my values” is essentially an extreme position.
      - keiferski 4y ago
        Thinking that it’s beneficial for people to live in beautiful buildings without pollution is my subjective opinion?
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        What is “beautiful” is, like, the textbook example of a subjective opinion.
        keiferski 4y ago
        No, not really. The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic. As I said above, the people who think this stuff is entirely subjective tend to be ones that haven’t engaged much (or at all) with previous thought on the topic.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > The concept of beauty has a long philosophical history and many knowledgeable and intelligent people have written books on the topic Which is not incompatible with it being subjective. In fact, many of those “knoweldgeable and intelligent” people have written specifically on its subjectivity, and others explicitly on specific, e.g., of a specific culture and time, subjective standards.

bheadmaster 4y ago

Some people not only think that that aestethics is entirely objective (which may or may not be true), but also think that their perception is somehow authoritative on the matter! Their opinion is that everything they like is objectively beautiful, and everything they don't like is objectively ugly. How narcissistic do those people have to be to hold themselves in such an unrealistically high regard?

kortilla 4y ago

>Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really thought much about the topic. Don’t do this. It’s a weaseling way to claim the person you are discussing things with isn’t thinking. Do you think the following is fair? Some people think that freedom of expression in appearance is unimportant. This is the default view of authoritarian societies, especially among people who have not really thought much about the topic.

CJefferson 4y ago

You've made a massive leap here. Of course there is an argument that aesthetics aren't entirely subjective. Are there any noteworthy philosopher who says (in effect, obviously not this exactly) people shouldn't go around in pyjamas?