4 ms·

Respect for other people, general social norms, polite behavior, personal dignity, and in general just a respect for one's appearance and a desire to make "civi

Respect for other people, general social norms, polite behavior, personal dignity, and in general just a respect for one's appearance and a desire to make "civilization" aesthetically appealing. People seem to enjoy living in beautiful buildings with green parks nearby, without pollution or noise, and yet somehow think dressing like a slob or putting zero effort into one's appearance is unimportant. To be honest, if you don't find this obviously true, I'm not sure any argument is going to convince you. I'll also add that in many countries outside of America, it is just the default to care about your appearance when in public.

meheleventyone 4y ago
> I'll also add that in many countries outside of America, it is just the default to care about your appearance when in public. Like forcing women to wear headscarves in Iran. The reason your argument is not self evidently true is the reason it’s not important FWIW.
- keiferski 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    My response is neither low quality nor trolling. There is absolutely a connection between the OPs attitude towards pyjamas and women being allowed to show their hair in Iran. It’s the same social mores except one opinion on how others dress is palatable to some and the other not. Which is particularly important given the on going struggle in Iran. Likewise the OP should consider how their opinion is reflected in that light. And your style of empty comment is the one that’s explicitly discouraged in the site guidelines. Edit: oh lol, you are the OP, I assume that touched a nerve.
    - generalizations 4y ago
      Dude, I have to agree with the OP here. Chill out. > There is absolutely a connection between the OPs attitude towards pyjamas and women being allowed to show their hair in Iran Except there isn't, because women's dress codes in areas under sharia law is enforced with violence and generally considered oppression; whereas pyjamas are an unenforced expectation. Also: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
      - the_only_law 4y ago
        Oh yeah the community can sneer at whoever the fuck they want but god forbids someone does it to them.
kelseyfrog 4y ago
Wanna play 5 Whys with it?
laserlight 4y ago
> if you don't find this obviously true Not the one you're replying to... Not only I don't find this obviously true, but also I find it obviously wrong. I prefer people stop being offended by how others look and stop judging people by their looks. I consider such attitude very shallow.
- noodleman 4y ago
  I'm not going to defend the other commenters point but I find your position strange. Imagine a person covered in poo, ripped clothes leaving visible track marks from using intraveinous drugs. I'm sure if you were forced to interact with that person, you'd not be happy, right? Does that make you shallow? I'm not sure someone wearing pyjamas is the slippery slope the previous commenter thinks it is, but their point about preferring people who make themselves more presentable is valid.
  - laserlight 4y ago
    I’m rather confused. The topic was how one looked. Where did poo and drugs come from? And where did happiness come from? Do you consider happiness a judgement?
uneekname 4y ago
I try not to argue with strangers much on the internet, but I really disagree with you on this one. What someone wears is a part of their self-expression. In this post, you use the phrases "respect for one's appearance" and "care about [one's] appearance" to suggest that people have a responsibility to follow certain norms in how they dress in order to make "'civilization' aesthetically appealing," in your words. Aesthetic is a subjective, and I think it's funny that you are so eager to project your aesthetic onto others. I for one actively choose to wear pajamas, go barefoot, keep my hair disheveled in public because that is my aesthetic and I think it looks good. I will also clean up my local park, reduce my ecological footprint as much as possible, insert socially responsible behavior here...but you should consider widening your view of what is and isn't ok to wear in public.
- keiferski 4y ago
  Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really thought much about the topic. Some people, including a lot of philosophers and art theorists that can be considered “experts”, disagree. I would consider myself in this camp, although not a credentialed expert by any means. And no, I’m not “projecting my aesthetic” on to others, simply defending the idea of norms and expectations. This is a very different thing. As I said in another comment, if you can’t get beyond the idea that Value is not entirely subjective and that everything isn’t just “your opinion, Dude,” then no argument is probably going to convince you of anything. Hence you will just end up in a situation like the OP posted about.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    How do you know what the objectively correct attire is and how did you measure it? And if you don’t know what it is then why would you say pyjamas aren’t it? Norms and expectations have varied wildly not just geographically in the present day but over time as well. To the point it was and actually is common to physically harm people.
    - keiferski 4y ago
hackerlight 4y ago
But I find enforcement of arbitrary dress codes to be aesthetically unappealing. I feel disgust towards those traits of a low-freedom society, whether that low-freedom comes from social pressure or actual laws. Have strict pollution and noise laws because those things actually hurt people beyond your personal subjective imagination.
atonse 4y ago
I am someone who, for much of the last 15 years has been happiest in a t shirt and shorts. But your points are ones I’ve thought about a LOT the last few years. In spite of being someone who rejects the idea of dressing fancier going deeper than just superficial beauty, I remember how I carry myself differently when I wear a suit. I feel more confident when I dress well. My wife loves when she sees that I made the effort and I love it when she has (as she often does). I also remember a friend telling me that the way people dress often also reflects their self esteem. And I know I dress worse when I’m feeling worse. These things matter. And I do think the general drop in quality of how people dress is a more visual sign of how we care less about each other.
- teg4n_ 4y ago
  I feel worse in a suit and it makes me feel like a fake. Wear a suit if it makes you feel good, I won’t because it makes me feel bad.
  - atonse 4y ago
    That's totally fine, I'm not advocating for suits per se – my point was more about the fact that what you wear DOES affect how you think (and in your case it seems like that particular piece of clothing makes you feel worse). I am genuinely curious why you make the association between wearing a suit and being fake – have most of the people you encountered that wore suits, been dishonest?
moistly 4y ago
A trip to “Citizens of Walmart” (or whatever it’s called) provides a much more solid argument for dress standards. Pyjamas are pretty crass, but they don’t hold a candle to the vulgar, bizarre, and even pornographic stuff that you’ll see on that website.
- keiferski 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Walmart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Walmart
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

meheleventyone 4y ago

> I'll also add that in many countries outside of America, it is just the default to care about your appearance when in public. Like forcing women to wear headscarves in Iran. The reason your argument is not self evidently true is the reason it’s not important FWIW.

keiferski 4y ago
[flagged]
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  My response is neither low quality nor trolling. There is absolutely a connection between the OPs attitude towards pyjamas and women being allowed to show their hair in Iran. It’s the same social mores except one opinion on how others dress is palatable to some and the other not. Which is particularly important given the on going struggle in Iran. Likewise the OP should consider how their opinion is reflected in that light. And your style of empty comment is the one that’s explicitly discouraged in the site guidelines. Edit: oh lol, you are the OP, I assume that touched a nerve.
  - generalizations 4y ago
    Dude, I have to agree with the OP here. Chill out. > There is absolutely a connection between the OPs attitude towards pyjamas and women being allowed to show their hair in Iran Except there isn't, because women's dress codes in areas under sharia law is enforced with violence and generally considered oppression; whereas pyjamas are an unenforced expectation. Also: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      Oh yeah the community can sneer at whoever the fuck they want but god forbids someone does it to them.

kelseyfrog 4y ago

Wanna play 5 Whys with it?

laserlight 4y ago

> if you don't find this obviously true Not the one you're replying to... Not only I don't find this obviously true, but also I find it obviously wrong. I prefer people stop being offended by how others look and stop judging people by their looks. I consider such attitude very shallow.

noodleman 4y ago
I'm not going to defend the other commenters point but I find your position strange. Imagine a person covered in poo, ripped clothes leaving visible track marks from using intraveinous drugs. I'm sure if you were forced to interact with that person, you'd not be happy, right? Does that make you shallow? I'm not sure someone wearing pyjamas is the slippery slope the previous commenter thinks it is, but their point about preferring people who make themselves more presentable is valid.
- laserlight 4y ago
  I’m rather confused. The topic was how one looked. Where did poo and drugs come from? And where did happiness come from? Do you consider happiness a judgement?

uneekname 4y ago

I try not to argue with strangers much on the internet, but I really disagree with you on this one. What someone wears is a part of their self-expression. In this post, you use the phrases "respect for one's appearance" and "care about [one's] appearance" to suggest that people have a responsibility to follow certain norms in how they dress in order to make "'civilization' aesthetically appealing," in your words. Aesthetic is a subjective, and I think it's funny that you are so eager to project your aesthetic onto others. I for one actively choose to wear pajamas, go barefoot, keep my hair disheveled in public because that is my aesthetic and I think it looks good. I will also clean up my local park, reduce my ecological footprint as much as possible, insert socially responsible behavior here...but you should consider widening your view of what is and isn't ok to wear in public.

keiferski 4y ago
Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really thought much about the topic. Some people, including a lot of philosophers and art theorists that can be considered “experts”, disagree. I would consider myself in this camp, although not a credentialed expert by any means. And no, I’m not “projecting my aesthetic” on to others, simply defending the idea of norms and expectations. This is a very different thing. As I said in another comment, if you can’t get beyond the idea that Value is not entirely subjective and that everything isn’t just “your opinion, Dude,” then no argument is probably going to convince you of anything. Hence you will just end up in a situation like the OP posted about.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  How do you know what the objectively correct attire is and how did you measure it? And if you don’t know what it is then why would you say pyjamas aren’t it? Norms and expectations have varied wildly not just geographically in the present day but over time as well. To the point it was and actually is common to physically harm people.
  - keiferski 4y ago

hackerlight 4y ago

But I find enforcement of arbitrary dress codes to be aesthetically unappealing. I feel disgust towards those traits of a low-freedom society, whether that low-freedom comes from social pressure or actual laws. Have strict pollution and noise laws because those things actually hurt people beyond your personal subjective imagination.

atonse 4y ago

I am someone who, for much of the last 15 years has been happiest in a t shirt and shorts. But your points are ones I’ve thought about a LOT the last few years. In spite of being someone who rejects the idea of dressing fancier going deeper than just superficial beauty, I remember how I carry myself differently when I wear a suit. I feel more confident when I dress well. My wife loves when she sees that I made the effort and I love it when she has (as she often does). I also remember a friend telling me that the way people dress often also reflects their self esteem. And I know I dress worse when I’m feeling worse. These things matter. And I do think the general drop in quality of how people dress is a more visual sign of how we care less about each other.

teg4n_ 4y ago
I feel worse in a suit and it makes me feel like a fake. Wear a suit if it makes you feel good, I won’t because it makes me feel bad.
- atonse 4y ago
  That's totally fine, I'm not advocating for suits per se – my point was more about the fact that what you wear DOES affect how you think (and in your case it seems like that particular piece of clothing makes you feel worse). I am genuinely curious why you make the association between wearing a suit and being fake – have most of the people you encountered that wore suits, been dishonest?

moistly 4y ago

A trip to “Citizens of Walmart” (or whatever it’s called) provides a much more solid argument for dress standards. Pyjamas are pretty crass, but they don’t hold a candle to the vulgar, bizarre, and even pornographic stuff that you’ll see on that website.

keiferski 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Walmart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Walmart

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]