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I like how it is done in France: service is included in price everywhere. Why this could not be done in US? Another point is tips distribution: there are many

I like how it is done in France: service is included in price everywhere. Why this could not be done in US? Another point is tips distribution: there are many people involved in serving your meal. Does cook get tips? Does dishwasher? Does cleaning lady?

snotrockets 4y ago
Tips were created so that non white service personal could be employed but not paid wages to, as former slave owners found the concept of directly paying for labor abhorrent. They have integrated the idea of tips as the “American way” (just as much as police brutality or easy access to firearm) and it is now extremely hard to disintegrate. France had the luxury of having it colonies an ocean away, hence less resilience to a safety net back home, as it wouldn’t protect “undesirable”. Of course, now that they have crossed the ocean, that safety net is being slowly dismantled.
- dijit 4y ago
  A lot of loaded comments in this and with the risk of sounding combative or ignorant: citations?
  - snotrockets 4y ago
    Tipping as a way to avoid paying non whites: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fact-check-tipping-kept-wages-low-formerly-enslaved-black-workers/3896620001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fac... and basically all over research and the internet. On difference between US and European racism, and the role of the distance from the colonies: https://knowledge.insead.edu/responsibility/recognising-and-confronting-racism-europe https://knowledge.insead.edu/responsibility/recognising-and-... and a large body of research. On dismantling of the safety net in France: just read a newspaper.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Confirms the theory that: "everything weird in the USA will turn out to be to do with slavery".
  - snotrockets 4y ago
    Similar, everything different in western and central Europe can be attributed to colonialism.
- schmookeeg 4y ago
  Seems like this is the way out -- branding tipping as a racist throwback activity might end the ridiculous practice once and for all.
  - snotrockets 4y ago
    When tipping started in the US pre civil war, it was deemed classist and thus shunned upon. It’d be poetic if it’ll be discouraged by similar reasoning again.
- seneca 4y ago
  This is a political talking point, pretty far from established fact. It comes from the article you sited specifically. Here's another partisan article debunking it: https://www.aier.org/article/did-tipping-come-from-slavery-the-1619-project-lies-again/ https://www.aier.org/article/did-tipping-come-from-slavery-t...
  - snotrockets 4y ago
    AIER also "debunk"s global warming and the recent pandemic. ffs, in the link above they quote Segrave's book, but apparently didn't read it, because it shows tipping in the US was created as a result of economic, systematic racism. And then they discuss European's custom of tipping, which people in the US originally opposed (again, see Segrave's book, which they quote, but never bothered to read)
bitwize 4y ago
Yes, this is called "tipping out". Kitchen employees get a percentage of server tips. It sounds like a ripoff for all involved but the real sums can be significant. My sister was a waitress for much of her adult life because the work was easy to get and paid disproportionately well compared to the skill involved.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  Yes that is the tradition but as a customer, you often find that the tip is shared disproportionately. I've had delicious food served by a terrible waiter or waitress... wanted to give the chef a great tip but the server the bare minimum. I guess in general I believe the cook's job is a lot more difficult and I'd like to ensure a larger percentage of my tip goes to him or her, but am pretty sure it doesn't.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- pecantips 4y ago
  It's 1 or 2% of the server's take. In a normal week at a midrange restaurant in a metro it would add up to 60 or 80 dollars, busier weeks could be better of course. For a cook working 5 12+ hour days at low-mid teens $ an hour it's extra beer money but hardly comparable to the 20+ hourly servers come out with. Source, I have worked in kitchens for over 15 years (it sucks, don't do it, I changed careers ;)
sowbug 4y ago
I was in Paris recently and had an interesting experience at a restaurant. As I pulled out my phone to pay at the handheld terminal, the server asked me whether I'd like to add a tip. I asked whether the bill was "service included" as is the custom in France. He responded that the servers don't get that money, and that "we" encourage an extra tip to show appreciation for good service. He had clearly given this speech before, as it felt like he was reading from a script. I was speaking broken French to him, and he was speaking broken English to me, so I may have missed a nuance. But that was the gist. I left an extra 10%. The server was unusually nice for Paris standards, but I wouldn't have even thought to tip if he hadn't asked. Afterward, I wondered whether this was a Parisian hack on the service compris tradition. Everything he said was true, but it was manipulative in that it sidestepped my question whether the policy had changed. And I was pretty obviously American, so he knew I was accustomed to tipping.
akmarinov 4y ago
I think servers don't actually won't to do away with tips, because on good days they make a ton of money, way more than they would get with a decent wage.

snotrockets 4y ago

Tips were created so that non white service personal could be employed but not paid wages to, as former slave owners found the concept of directly paying for labor abhorrent. They have integrated the idea of tips as the “American way” (just as much as police brutality or easy access to firearm) and it is now extremely hard to disintegrate. France had the luxury of having it colonies an ocean away, hence less resilience to a safety net back home, as it wouldn’t protect “undesirable”. Of course, now that they have crossed the ocean, that safety net is being slowly dismantled.

dijit 4y ago
A lot of loaded comments in this and with the risk of sounding combative or ignorant: citations?
- snotrockets 4y ago
  Tipping as a way to avoid paying non whites: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fact-check-tipping-kept-wages-low-formerly-enslaved-black-workers/3896620001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fac... and basically all over research and the internet. On difference between US and European racism, and the role of the distance from the colonies: https://knowledge.insead.edu/responsibility/recognising-and-confronting-racism-europe https://knowledge.insead.edu/responsibility/recognising-and-... and a large body of research. On dismantling of the safety net in France: just read a newspaper.
dboreham 4y ago
Confirms the theory that: "everything weird in the USA will turn out to be to do with slavery".
- snotrockets 4y ago
  Similar, everything different in western and central Europe can be attributed to colonialism.
schmookeeg 4y ago
Seems like this is the way out -- branding tipping as a racist throwback activity might end the ridiculous practice once and for all.
- snotrockets 4y ago
  When tipping started in the US pre civil war, it was deemed classist and thus shunned upon. It’d be poetic if it’ll be discouraged by similar reasoning again.
seneca 4y ago
This is a political talking point, pretty far from established fact. It comes from the article you sited specifically. Here's another partisan article debunking it: https://www.aier.org/article/did-tipping-come-from-slavery-the-1619-project-lies-again/ https://www.aier.org/article/did-tipping-come-from-slavery-t...
- snotrockets 4y ago
  AIER also "debunk"s global warming and the recent pandemic. ffs, in the link above they quote Segrave's book, but apparently didn't read it, because it shows tipping in the US was created as a result of economic, systematic racism. And then they discuss European's custom of tipping, which people in the US originally opposed (again, see Segrave's book, which they quote, but never bothered to read)

bitwize 4y ago

Yes, this is called "tipping out". Kitchen employees get a percentage of server tips. It sounds like a ripoff for all involved but the real sums can be significant. My sister was a waitress for much of her adult life because the work was easy to get and paid disproportionately well compared to the skill involved.

listenallyall 4y ago
Yes that is the tradition but as a customer, you often find that the tip is shared disproportionately. I've had delicious food served by a terrible waiter or waitress... wanted to give the chef a great tip but the server the bare minimum. I guess in general I believe the cook's job is a lot more difficult and I'd like to ensure a larger percentage of my tip goes to him or her, but am pretty sure it doesn't.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
pecantips 4y ago
It's 1 or 2% of the server's take. In a normal week at a midrange restaurant in a metro it would add up to 60 or 80 dollars, busier weeks could be better of course. For a cook working 5 12+ hour days at low-mid teens $ an hour it's extra beer money but hardly comparable to the 20+ hourly servers come out with. Source, I have worked in kitchens for over 15 years (it sucks, don't do it, I changed careers ;)

sowbug 4y ago

I was in Paris recently and had an interesting experience at a restaurant. As I pulled out my phone to pay at the handheld terminal, the server asked me whether I'd like to add a tip. I asked whether the bill was "service included" as is the custom in France. He responded that the servers don't get that money, and that "we" encourage an extra tip to show appreciation for good service. He had clearly given this speech before, as it felt like he was reading from a script. I was speaking broken French to him, and he was speaking broken English to me, so I may have missed a nuance. But that was the gist. I left an extra 10%. The server was unusually nice for Paris standards, but I wouldn't have even thought to tip if he hadn't asked. Afterward, I wondered whether this was a Parisian hack on the service compris tradition. Everything he said was true, but it was manipulative in that it sidestepped my question whether the policy had changed. And I was pretty obviously American, so he knew I was accustomed to tipping.

akmarinov 4y ago

I think servers don't actually won't to do away with tips, because on good days they make a ton of money, way more than they would get with a decent wage.