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The other Phillips head screwdriver
- jaclaz 4y agoAFAIK JIS is now becoming obsolete, we have DIN 5260/ISO 8764-1 : https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-to-buy-a-jis-screwdriver/ https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-...
- blamazon 4y agoIf you ever need to rebuild a Japanese carburetor, buy some nice JIS screwdrivers. Thank me later!
- BenjiWiebe 4y agoI work on small engines/powersport engines. Most of the carburetors are Japanese. I love my Vessel JIS screwdriver.
- mberning 4y agoVessel has a cool version that you can strike with a hammer to loosen tough screws. I think it’s called “impacta”.
- emsixteen 4y agoBeen looking for JIS screwdrivers which don't cost a fortune here in Europe, not had much luck. Don't quite need it before a few months from now but it's still frustrating!
- RobotToaster 4y agoThe Japanese company "Vessel" make JIS drivers that are generally quite well regarded and not too expensive.
- emsixteen 4y agoYeah, I'd buy their megadora ones ideally, £25+ per screwdriver is too expensive imo.
- blamazon 4y agoCheck out "Vessel Famidora 8 TD-800" on eBay or other places! It's a lovely kit and affordable enough for me in USA to stockpile them.
- emsixteen 4y agoCheers for the recommendation. Doesn't seem to be JIS though? It can be hard to tell and I'm no expert at all, but they seem to be normal Philips.
- blamazon 4y agoCould be a mistranslation thing. They lock into my vintage Japanese stuff really nicely in such a way as to make me think JIS.
- dotancohen 4y agoAli Express might not have Mag-quality tools, but they will likely have something sufficient at a decent price.
- Lammy 4y agoAlso game consoles, laptops, arcade machines, …
- gerikson 4y agoI got a set of JIS screwdrivers to help me disassemble Nikkor lenses.
- Ancapistani 4y agoI wish I'd read this before camming out the screws holding my Nikkor 105mm trying to get into it to fix a sticky aperture :(. On the bright side, I didn't completely round them out - I knew enough to stop when it came out the first time. I've been meaning to send it off, but maybe I'll just invest in the proper drivers instead.
- gerikson 4y agoI let a repairman service a 105/2.5 that didn't focus to infinity, as well as a 35/1.4 with slow aperture blades, but sadly he suffered a stroke and had to stop working :(
- dotancohen 4y agoNot an uncommon outcome. I also nearly had a stroke the first time I encountered those blasted JIS screws.
- hprotagonist 4y agoI owned a honda motorcycle from the mid-70s for a while. I have a hammer actuated JIS impact driver, as a result: the crank-case was held on by 8 of the bloody things.
- Gordonjcp 4y agoI used to have a Honda CD200 Benly; I still have a hammer-actuated JIS impact driver.
- gumby 4y agoDoes DIN 5260 mean Jeep will need to change those taillights?
- buildsjets 4y agoThere are many other Phillips-like but not Phillips head designs in common use, including: Pozidriv, used on many devices manufactured in the EU. Phillips ACR which is Phillips with extra ridges for more torque/less stripping Frearson is used in fine woodworking screws MorTorque is used in some aerospace applications. Rolls-Royce jet engines are covered with them. Offset Cruiciform, AKA Torq-set, aka Nazi Screws, were previously common in aviation but are not typically used in new commercial design. As usual wiki has a pretty decent article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Cruciform_drives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Cruciform... They missed the offset cruciform tho. https://www.phillips-screw.com/drive_systems/torq-set/ https://www.phillips-screw.com/drive_systems/torq-set/
- Oxidation 4y agoThey didn't miss it, it's near the end under tamper-resistant for some reason.
- blep_ 4y ago"Tamper-resistant" usually just means "normal people won't have a screwdriver for it".
- daltonlp 4y agoFrearson is also used in most marine applications: https://fairwindfasteners.com/blogs/news/reed-prince-frearson-drive-vs-phillips https://fairwindfasteners.com/blogs/news/reed-prince-frearso...
- samwillis 4y agoSeems to be down, mirror here: https://web.archive.org/web/20220929080424/https://shoppress.dormanproducts.com/not-every-phillips-head/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220929080424/https://shoppress... In Europe (well worldwide) there is another "Philips" like screw head called Pozidriv [0], it has a small engraved cross 45deg to the main recess on the screw head. The drivers have flutes in the head identifying them. They are much better than Philips as they are designed to not ride out until under a high enough torque where the screw could be damaged. In the UK they are the dominant product in hardware stores. 0: https://shop4fasteners.co.uk/blog/pozidriv-vs-phillips/ https://shop4fasteners.co.uk/blog/pozidriv-vs-phillips/
- afandian 4y agoUntil I heard about Robertson in Canada I had assumed that commodity items like screws and screwdrivers were truly international. Is Pozidriv really not common in the US?
- avhon1 4y agoPozidriv is very uncommon in the US. Philips (00, 0, and 2) are by far the most common screw heads here for most people. (Pretty much every household will have these for changing batteries, assembling furniture, doing minor repairs...) Slotted screw heads used to be ubiquitous, and the screwdrivers still are, though mostly for use as pry bars. You'll see some socket-head hex-drive stuff, in a mix of metric and fractional inch drives (which can inform you on how US-centric the design and manufacture of the product was), and maybe some Torx (especially in electronics). I've only seen Robertson in drywall and decking screws at the hardware store, and I haven't yet seen them used in someone's home.
- GrumpyNl 4y agoFor me the Robertson are the best (square heads). All over Canada and very common there, never found them in Europe.
- pantalaimon 4y agoHex keys are more common here in Europe I would say.
- lstodd 4y agoYeah, hex and torx. Seriously, for tough places 60 degrees before reinsert vs 90 degrees win.
- barbazoo 4y agoThis is where North America got it right 100%. Coming from Europe I was used to Phillips and flathead but my eyes were opened here in Canada when all screws were basically either the #6 or (mostly) the #8 Robertson. Why on earth do I have literally 20 different Phillips and maybe 10 different flathead bits? And that's finding the right one that doesn't slip and destroy the screw is so much work. Robertson ftw.
- analog31 4y agoSomething I've found is that if I don't have precisely the right bit on hand, a sharp new Phillips bit will usually work well enough, and much better then a dull rounded one.
- ranting-moth 4y agoI keep going for bits that kind of work and if I can't find anything my lowest common denominator is the angle grinder. Then I can replace the thing with a proper screw.
- thinkloop 4y agoI never realized how bad Phillips was until I started renovating a home this year. They are truly the worst of all the options. They need to be phased out completely. Square is better in every way. A core problem with Phillips is not only that the cross is simply not the best shape to hold torque, which it's not, but that there is no consistency between the crosses themselves. With square, you only have to worry about size. With Phillips, you have to pay attention to the angles and character of the cross, in addition to size. One Phillips might be deeper or skinnier than another that looks the same. Matching the perfect driver to a screw is difficult in general, and near impossible by eye.
- nemo44x 4y agoPhillips is great when you’re screwing in an area you can’t see. The bit slips in nicely and you don’t have to think about size. But yeah Robertsons are nice in many other instances.
- vinay427 4y ago> The bit slips in nicely As someone with very little recent experience with these types, could you elaborate on what you mean by this, at least compared to the Robertson screw?
- nemo44x 4y agoComing at the screw from an angle or not being able to see orientation. The bit just “falls in” nicely when you can’t see compared to other shapes.
- timbit42 4y agoWith Robertson, the screw will stay on the driver so you don't need to see it to find it.
- nemo44x 4y agoCan do that with any head really. But imagine the screw is there already. And you don’t know the size. Phillips is probably better here. Not a common use case for most people.
- exmadscientist 4y agoAnd there is even a third! The article talks about "normal" versus JIS Phillips drives. But "normal" actually comes in two different flavors: US (ANSI) and German (DIN/later ISO). ISO Phillips drivers work perfectly on ISO Phillips heads and quite well on JIS or ANSI Phillips heads. ANSI Phillips drivers work perfectly on ANSI Phillips heads and noticeably worse on JIS or ISO Phillips heads. You probably have not experienced this if your Phillips screwdrivers were not made in USA, as virtually every manufacturer outside the US used or uses the JIS, DIN, or ISO profile for their tools, and those work tolerably on all Phillips type screws. (Of course JIS is palpably best on JIS, which is the subject of the article.) But if you have older or newer made in USA tools (especially Pratt-Read, who recently closed down) or fasteners (which probably had to come from some industrial type place), you may have noticed that Phillips is even more crap than expected. Or you might have noticed that the "foreigners" are better at tools if you compared against a good German or Japanese screwdriver. Not really! It's just that there are three kinds of Phillips profile. It's awful. Death to Phillips, death to Pozidriv (too easy to confuse and damage here in the US), death to anything that looks like Phillips. Long live Robertson, Hex, Torx, and anything with ball end drivers available!
- timbit42 4y agoWhat do you think of Milwaukee's ECX?
- exmadscientist 4y agoThose are the same as or at least closely related to quadrex, xeno, or "terminal" (as in "wiring terminal") bits. I have them in two sizes, both bits and insulated handles. I find I never use them as just sticking a #1 Robertson in there (despite my being American) does everything I could want.
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- smcleod 4y agoInteresting that the USA doesn't seem to use Pozi. In Australia and NZ - Pozi are by far the most common in building/construction (although everyone refers them as Phillips colloquially) with square drive there after. Cheap/poorly made hardware from China will at times ship with Phillips instead of Pozi (or JIS), you can always tell because Philip screwdrivers are easy to strip in comparison and require slightly more talk to tighten I think. With machined screws such as those used on electronics the most common for commercial/industrial would probably be Torx, followed by Pozi. In cheap consumer gear it's probably a mix of Phillips and Pozi. Really no one should be using Phillips in this day and age, it's horribly dated - easy to strip and low torque.
- LarryMullins 4y agoI'm sure it's not a factor in their general popularity, but from an aesthetic point of view I think Pozidriv is inferior to Philips; pozidriv fastener heads look messy with those 45 degree tickmarks. But both are inferior to Robertson/Square. Those look the most neat and trim of any screw head.
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- jgerrish 4y agoOn of my most memorable courses in school was an evolutionary computation course. It dealt with algorithms like using genetic algorithms for search. Interesting work. One of the lectures I remember mentioned some work being done using genetic algorithms to design automotive fenders to absorb the greatest amount of energy. I could imagine using GAs to design optimal screw heads. You'd need a set of restrictions, but I think physics models are well known and simple enough to do it. Then there's the big question. What other common everyday objects do we overlook that could use a redesign using similar techniques?