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I've always been skeptical of the old well drillers who use a Y shaped stick to find water. But here's my anecdote as a civil engineer with plenty of field tim

I've always been skeptical of the old well drillers who use a Y shaped stick to find water. But here's my anecdote as a civil engineer with plenty of field time in the water industry, you can test this yourself for free, just call 811 and have them mark your utilities at home or the office: I've never heard of using dowsing rods to find leaks, but they can actually find underground utilities pretty reliably. You take two bent metal rods that are an L shape. Conveniently here they use little plastic flags on metal rods to mark the locations of utilities. They also spray paint in broken lines the direction and location of the utility. This is useful when you have to excavate so you know where you're safe to use the machine and where you need to do hand digging. OK so bend the metal rods in an L shape and point them straight ahead. Walk towards the buried utility (water pipe, storm sewer, gas line), and as you approach the location of the utility the dowsing rods will align themselves with the direction of the pipe. It's definitely spooky! And I didn't believe it until I tried it, believe me, I was skeptical. I wish someone could provide a reasonable explanation that doesn't rely on psychology. If you've never done it, I encourage you to try. Edit: I should mention utility companies don't use dowsing rods to find their pipes. We have modern methods with sophisticated detectors and accurate maps. It is ILLEGAL to dig if you haven't called 811 for a professional markout.

engineer_22 4y ago
https://youtu.be/AW_xDXDtDmc https://youtu.be/AW_xDXDtDmc This is what it looks like. There's no explanation for this phenomenon. No, it's not "gut instinct"
- engineer_22 4y ago
  https://youtu.be/rHm-lZb5kuo https://youtu.be/rHm-lZb5kuo Here's a dorky journalist doing it. Maybe that's more credible.
- blincoln 4y ago
  Before I begin, let me start by saying that I know of no evidence that dowsing for water can work. To my knowledge, it's from there that the technique of using two L-shaped rods has been treated as discredited, even though the testing was generally only for "water witching". That having been said, if there's a magnetic field present, it's easy to find using one or two of those L-shaped metal rods,[1] and also fairly straightforward to understand. If you start with just one, the field will exert a dragging effect on the arm of the rod as it moves through the field, and the rod will more or less end up pointing toward the center of the field. I.e. the rod will act sort of like a cat whisker. It's such a small effect that the rods have to already be in motion to notice it. In most cases the field isn't strong enough to move the rod when it's at rest. If you do the same thing with two rods, they will indeed cross under certain conditions. I don't know enough about magnetic field theory to explain that behaviour. The first time I tried it, decades ago, I found a magnet that I didn't even know was present, so I knew immediately it wasn't just the ideomotor effect. Some types of metal will affect the Earth's magnetic field enough to he detectable remotely (e.g. military magnetic anomaly detectors used to find submarines), so maybe an underground metal pipe is enough? I haven't tried that myself. That having been said, the supposed ability to detect other buried objects is so persistent over centuries that I wonder if there could be a very subtle equivalent for gravity fields or something else. I highly doubt it, given that no one has been able to detect water in controlled tests, but it would be a fun surprise. Edit: these days it's much faster and easier to use the magnetometer in your phone, but the first time I tried it was long before smartphones. [1] I don't know how much the type of metal matters. I assume iron or steel is best.
  - User23 4y ago
    > That having been said, if there's a magnetic field present Water is weakly magnetic. The polarity of the H2O molecule is in fact essential to life as we know it. And of course typical water has plenty of other ions in solution.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      I think you'd be very hard pressed to create a handheld digital gadget that could magnetically detect water under the ground. It might not be impossible, but I think the effect must be much smaller than you could plausibly detect with two pieces of bent wire.
      - User23 4y ago
        I'm inclined to agree, but I do think "plausibly" is doing a little more work there than it first appears. I've had a handful of paranormal experiences in my life that I was able to verify to my complete satisfaction. Also, when I had those experiences I was an avowed materialist agnostic who enjoyed shooting down religious people to show how clever I thought I was. I returned to a dualist philosophy as a result of logical inquiry, not religious indoctrination. Platonism is a gateway drug. Even so, my first thought is always to look for a normal explanation. In my experience paranormal abilities are both extremely rare and frankly quite unreliable. Due to that, for me the apparent reliability of dowsing actually speaks against it being what I would consider a paranormal phenomenon. As others have put better in other comments on this submission, it's probably a matter of training and subconscious recognition. Nevertheless, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there are practitioners who 99% of the time are doing that, but 1% of the time actually do something paranormal. I just don't know.
dghf 4y ago
It’s called the ideomotor phenomenon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon You are making the rods move by subconsciously moving your hands.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  I'm sorry but it's not that. Please try it. Edit: ok, devil's advocate. Maybe it IS that. How then, does a humans subconscious know where a pipe is buried below ground without any visible indication?
  - jstanley 4y ago
    But you said yourself that you're having the locations of the utilities marked ahead of time.
  - dghf 4y ago
    As mentioned by others in the comments on the post, one possibility is that there are, in fact, visible indications. In one of the videos you linked to, the guy doing the demonstration pointed out a visible line in the gravel that showed where a cable was buried, before showing how the rods crossed when he was directly above it. Also, unless I misunderstood you, you advocated trying the experiment with utilities marked by flags and spray paint. More subtly, someone with industry experience could be picking up on less obvious cues, as @VLM suggested in this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34558567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34558567): > As an engineer I know to look for a slight depression in the ground, maybe so slight most can't notice, and the smell of wet dirt is different, and pipe comes in coils or segments of length X so even unconsciously I might eventually learn to detect at spots multiples of X away from the water main. I imagine I could unconsciously become a highly skilled dowser just by working it hard enough for enough years and storing enough data. Another possibility is something akin to publication bias: successes get remembered and celebrated, and misses get forgotten. As far as I know, dowsing ability has never been demonstrated under controlled conditions, with those attempting to do so performing no better than chance.
  - serf 4y ago
User23 4y ago
This and your related comments are quite interesting. I like the Newtonian approach of feigning no hypotheses for phenomena like this. Any explanation is going to be necessarily speculative. What isn't speculative is whether or not the technique actually works which it appears to do. I have no doubt that an accomplished stage magician could pull off similar feats in any number of ways. Is there an untapped well (hoho) of future Las Vegas stars in the water industry? Or is it a different skill set at work?
jstanley 4y ago
I'd be more impressed if it worked even when the location of the water utility is not spray painted onto the ground ahead of time.

engineer_22 4y ago

https://youtu.be/AW_xDXDtDmc https://youtu.be/AW_xDXDtDmc This is what it looks like. There's no explanation for this phenomenon. No, it's not "gut instinct"

engineer_22 4y ago
https://youtu.be/rHm-lZb5kuo https://youtu.be/rHm-lZb5kuo Here's a dorky journalist doing it. Maybe that's more credible.
blincoln 4y ago
Before I begin, let me start by saying that I know of no evidence that dowsing for water can work. To my knowledge, it's from there that the technique of using two L-shaped rods has been treated as discredited, even though the testing was generally only for "water witching". That having been said, if there's a magnetic field present, it's easy to find using one or two of those L-shaped metal rods,[1] and also fairly straightforward to understand. If you start with just one, the field will exert a dragging effect on the arm of the rod as it moves through the field, and the rod will more or less end up pointing toward the center of the field. I.e. the rod will act sort of like a cat whisker. It's such a small effect that the rods have to already be in motion to notice it. In most cases the field isn't strong enough to move the rod when it's at rest. If you do the same thing with two rods, they will indeed cross under certain conditions. I don't know enough about magnetic field theory to explain that behaviour. The first time I tried it, decades ago, I found a magnet that I didn't even know was present, so I knew immediately it wasn't just the ideomotor effect. Some types of metal will affect the Earth's magnetic field enough to he detectable remotely (e.g. military magnetic anomaly detectors used to find submarines), so maybe an underground metal pipe is enough? I haven't tried that myself. That having been said, the supposed ability to detect other buried objects is so persistent over centuries that I wonder if there could be a very subtle equivalent for gravity fields or something else. I highly doubt it, given that no one has been able to detect water in controlled tests, but it would be a fun surprise. Edit: these days it's much faster and easier to use the magnetometer in your phone, but the first time I tried it was long before smartphones. [1] I don't know how much the type of metal matters. I assume iron or steel is best.
- User23 4y ago
  > That having been said, if there's a magnetic field present Water is weakly magnetic. The polarity of the H2O molecule is in fact essential to life as we know it. And of course typical water has plenty of other ions in solution.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    I think you'd be very hard pressed to create a handheld digital gadget that could magnetically detect water under the ground. It might not be impossible, but I think the effect must be much smaller than you could plausibly detect with two pieces of bent wire.
    - User23 4y ago
      I'm inclined to agree, but I do think "plausibly" is doing a little more work there than it first appears. I've had a handful of paranormal experiences in my life that I was able to verify to my complete satisfaction. Also, when I had those experiences I was an avowed materialist agnostic who enjoyed shooting down religious people to show how clever I thought I was. I returned to a dualist philosophy as a result of logical inquiry, not religious indoctrination. Platonism is a gateway drug. Even so, my first thought is always to look for a normal explanation. In my experience paranormal abilities are both extremely rare and frankly quite unreliable. Due to that, for me the apparent reliability of dowsing actually speaks against it being what I would consider a paranormal phenomenon. As others have put better in other comments on this submission, it's probably a matter of training and subconscious recognition. Nevertheless, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there are practitioners who 99% of the time are doing that, but 1% of the time actually do something paranormal. I just don't know.

dghf 4y ago

It’s called the ideomotor phenomenon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon You are making the rods move by subconsciously moving your hands.

engineer_22 4y ago
I'm sorry but it's not that. Please try it. Edit: ok, devil's advocate. Maybe it IS that. How then, does a humans subconscious know where a pipe is buried below ground without any visible indication?
- jstanley 4y ago
  But you said yourself that you're having the locations of the utilities marked ahead of time.
- dghf 4y ago
  As mentioned by others in the comments on the post, one possibility is that there are, in fact, visible indications. In one of the videos you linked to, the guy doing the demonstration pointed out a visible line in the gravel that showed where a cable was buried, before showing how the rods crossed when he was directly above it. Also, unless I misunderstood you, you advocated trying the experiment with utilities marked by flags and spray paint. More subtly, someone with industry experience could be picking up on less obvious cues, as @VLM suggested in this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34558567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34558567): > As an engineer I know to look for a slight depression in the ground, maybe so slight most can't notice, and the smell of wet dirt is different, and pipe comes in coils or segments of length X so even unconsciously I might eventually learn to detect at spots multiples of X away from the water main. I imagine I could unconsciously become a highly skilled dowser just by working it hard enough for enough years and storing enough data. Another possibility is something akin to publication bias: successes get remembered and celebrated, and misses get forgotten. As far as I know, dowsing ability has never been demonstrated under controlled conditions, with those attempting to do so performing no better than chance.
- serf 4y ago

User23 4y ago

This and your related comments are quite interesting. I like the Newtonian approach of feigning no hypotheses for phenomena like this. Any explanation is going to be necessarily speculative. What isn't speculative is whether or not the technique actually works which it appears to do. I have no doubt that an accomplished stage magician could pull off similar feats in any number of ways. Is there an untapped well (hoho) of future Las Vegas stars in the water industry? Or is it a different skill set at work?

jstanley 4y ago

I'd be more impressed if it worked even when the location of the water utility is not spray painted onto the ground ahead of time.