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I’d also argue that for young men - unless you’re an absolute unit and breathtakingly handsome… you’re always going to need to make more than your partner for a

I’d also argue that for young men - unless you’re an absolute unit and breathtakingly handsome… you’re always going to need to make more than your partner for a long term relationship. Being a bartender or taking a lower wage job is a surefire way to only being able to sleep around. I’ve only met a few women who earn more than their spouse and can actually only think of one off the top of my head. Every other couple has the husband making significantly more even if their ages are exactly the same.

nixgeek 4y ago
This in itself is a huge problem and addressing it requires some combination of: (i) regulation backed up with investigations and significant fines for violation; (ii) transparency into pay equity; (iii) corporate action, optimally because it’s the right thing, but pessimistically because you can’t ignore the prior two points.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  Why is it a huge problem?
  - nixgeek 4y ago
    Why is it normal or acceptable that men earn more than women? It’s been studied for a long time and there’s evidence [1] of some closure across recent censuses, but we’re far from done. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/03/what-is-the-gender-wage-gap-in-your-state.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/03/what-is-the-g...
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
      > Why is it normal It was the norm for generations because women didn't work at all and men were expected to earn all of the money for themselves and their family. We are not as far removed from those days as people would like to think, expecting the attitude to have completely gone away by now is very optimistic. > Why is it acceptable Why would it not be acceptable? Even in a society with zero bias in favor of men in the workplace, it's still possible that men wind up earning more due to other factors than just bias. If men are earning more than women doing the same job while all other factors are the same, then that's unfair. If men are earning more because they are working more hours, or because they are taking more dangerous or undesirable jobs that women choose not to pursue, or if men are choosing higher paid industries more consistently, then that's not unfair. That's economics.
    - xyzelement 4y ago
      I think you misunderstood the poster you replied to. He's not talking about any pay disparity, he's talking about women's preference for high earning men. Obviously plenty of women earn more than plenty of men. They don't, as a rule, chose to marry those men.
    - tomp 4y ago
      Woke people like you see discrimination even where there is none. Even in situations where people are paid by algorithms (i.e. only based on the work they perform, regardless of their sex), men earn more than women because they simply try to earn more (i.e. they optimise for earnings). "Study of Uber drivers finds men earn more than women — for three key reasons" https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-uber-gender-pay-20180709-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-uber-gender-pay-20180... The article above doesn't discuss it, but another reason is that men work more; so for the same hourly wage ("equal pay for equal work"), men would still earn more. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-report-men-work-longer-hours-than-women/?sh=4026772818b4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-repo...
- havelhovel 4y ago
  The parent comment was arguing that women choose to be with men who earn more than them. This was in no way a data point for wage inequality, which you seem to be implying.
RobinL 4y ago
Given that women on average don't earn that much less than men, it can't be that rare for women to earn more than their male partner
- lucaspm98 4y ago
  It's rare not due to women earning less than men, but due to women's preference to be single rather that be in a relationship with a man who earns less than them. It may be overwhelmingly positive that women are not dependent on men financially, but it doesn't seem dating preferences and cultural norms have kept pace.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
Yup. When I met my girlfriend she was really clear that she didn't want to date someone who didn't have a similar level of accomplishment to her. It wasn't about money entirely, but money was a part of it. She has a master's degree and manages a department of people at a fairly big company. I only have a bachelor, and I don't manage people, but I earn more than her. So I guess it balances out? She would never date a barista. Not because there is something wrong with being a barista, but I think because what she was looking for was a partner, and it's hard tp be partners if there is a large "success" imbalance between you. Men are much more willing to "date down" imo because it's culturally more ingrained into us. Women used to not be able to own much, so the expectation was that men "date down" for a long time! We like to think that's all gone away now but it's still very much ingrained into our culture I think.
- siftrics 4y ago
  Wow, I am sorry your girlfriend has such superficial values.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    I don't think that "I want a partner who works as hard as I do to succeed" is superficial. I think "I want a partner who is at least 6 feet tall" is superficial.
    - Gud 4y ago
      Why is that superficial? Being tall has clear value
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Low blow, dude!
- foobarian 4y ago
Retric 4y ago
I can think of several. It’s becoming quite common as significantly more women have been getting degrees than men. Guys with flexible jobs and domestic skills can be very appealing to high income earning women. At one end a friend was doing raft tours and became a cook. A higher pay and status example is a PHD taking care of high end lab equipment married to a high end lawyer. I also know of several cases of women inheriting large sums and windows. I think it’s fairly common you just rarely know, my grandfather’s second wife was much better off and I had no idea until someone told me.
LeanderK 4y ago
I would guess that people date mostly "inside" their social bubble (or with a similar social prestige). A broke bartender probably did not go to university etc. and therefore the background is different to the accomplished women with an MBA. There should be studies about it, maybe there's a way to make the conversation more fact based? For example, all relationships formed at work will probably lead to similar backgrounds.
havelhovel 4y ago
That the people in your life have led you to believe that a man’s romantic value comes from his appearance or relative income is only evidence that you need to meet better people. The reality is that women who feel that way are never going to be happy with anyone. You should check out the first chapter of Don’t Trust Your Gut if you want to know what really matters in a successful long term relationship.

nixgeek 4y ago

This in itself is a huge problem and addressing it requires some combination of: (i) regulation backed up with investigations and significant fines for violation; (ii) transparency into pay equity; (iii) corporate action, optimally because it’s the right thing, but pessimistically because you can’t ignore the prior two points.

xyzelement 4y ago
Why is it a huge problem?
- nixgeek 4y ago
  Why is it normal or acceptable that men earn more than women? It’s been studied for a long time and there’s evidence [1] of some closure across recent censuses, but we’re far from done. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/03/what-is-the-gender-wage-gap-in-your-state.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/03/what-is-the-g...
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    > Why is it normal It was the norm for generations because women didn't work at all and men were expected to earn all of the money for themselves and their family. We are not as far removed from those days as people would like to think, expecting the attitude to have completely gone away by now is very optimistic. > Why is it acceptable Why would it not be acceptable? Even in a society with zero bias in favor of men in the workplace, it's still possible that men wind up earning more due to other factors than just bias. If men are earning more than women doing the same job while all other factors are the same, then that's unfair. If men are earning more because they are working more hours, or because they are taking more dangerous or undesirable jobs that women choose not to pursue, or if men are choosing higher paid industries more consistently, then that's not unfair. That's economics.
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    I think you misunderstood the poster you replied to. He's not talking about any pay disparity, he's talking about women's preference for high earning men. Obviously plenty of women earn more than plenty of men. They don't, as a rule, chose to marry those men.
  - tomp 4y ago
    Woke people like you see discrimination even where there is none. Even in situations where people are paid by algorithms (i.e. only based on the work they perform, regardless of their sex), men earn more than women because they simply try to earn more (i.e. they optimise for earnings). "Study of Uber drivers finds men earn more than women — for three key reasons" https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-uber-gender-pay-20180709-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-uber-gender-pay-20180... The article above doesn't discuss it, but another reason is that men work more; so for the same hourly wage ("equal pay for equal work"), men would still earn more. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-report-men-work-longer-hours-than-women/?sh=4026772818b4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-repo...
havelhovel 4y ago
The parent comment was arguing that women choose to be with men who earn more than them. This was in no way a data point for wage inequality, which you seem to be implying.

RobinL 4y ago

Given that women on average don't earn that much less than men, it can't be that rare for women to earn more than their male partner

lucaspm98 4y ago
It's rare not due to women earning less than men, but due to women's preference to be single rather that be in a relationship with a man who earns less than them. It may be overwhelmingly positive that women are not dependent on men financially, but it doesn't seem dating preferences and cultural norms have kept pace.

bluefirebrand 4y ago

Yup. When I met my girlfriend she was really clear that she didn't want to date someone who didn't have a similar level of accomplishment to her. It wasn't about money entirely, but money was a part of it. She has a master's degree and manages a department of people at a fairly big company. I only have a bachelor, and I don't manage people, but I earn more than her. So I guess it balances out? She would never date a barista. Not because there is something wrong with being a barista, but I think because what she was looking for was a partner, and it's hard tp be partners if there is a large "success" imbalance between you. Men are much more willing to "date down" imo because it's culturally more ingrained into us. Women used to not be able to own much, so the expectation was that men "date down" for a long time! We like to think that's all gone away now but it's still very much ingrained into our culture I think.

siftrics 4y ago
Wow, I am sorry your girlfriend has such superficial values.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  I don't think that "I want a partner who works as hard as I do to succeed" is superficial. I think "I want a partner who is at least 6 feet tall" is superficial.
  - Gud 4y ago
    Why is that superficial? Being tall has clear value
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Low blow, dude!
foobarian 4y ago

Retric 4y ago

I can think of several. It’s becoming quite common as significantly more women have been getting degrees than men. Guys with flexible jobs and domestic skills can be very appealing to high income earning women. At one end a friend was doing raft tours and became a cook. A higher pay and status example is a PHD taking care of high end lab equipment married to a high end lawyer. I also know of several cases of women inheriting large sums and windows. I think it’s fairly common you just rarely know, my grandfather’s second wife was much better off and I had no idea until someone told me.

LeanderK 4y ago

I would guess that people date mostly "inside" their social bubble (or with a similar social prestige). A broke bartender probably did not go to university etc. and therefore the background is different to the accomplished women with an MBA. There should be studies about it, maybe there's a way to make the conversation more fact based? For example, all relationships formed at work will probably lead to similar backgrounds.

havelhovel 4y ago

That the people in your life have led you to believe that a man’s romantic value comes from his appearance or relative income is only evidence that you need to meet better people. The reality is that women who feel that way are never going to be happy with anyone. You should check out the first chapter of Don’t Trust Your Gut if you want to know what really matters in a successful long term relationship.