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> They mix pretty well (e.g. Germany's private health care system is doing fine, it's the public one that struggles) The public one in Germany is struggling pr

> They mix pretty well (e.g. Germany's private health care system is doing fine, it's the public one that struggles) The public one in Germany is struggling precisely why every public one everywhere is struggling: They defund the public healthcare to cripple it to justify privatizing it by saying 'it doesnt work'. Works every time as public believe it like idiots. And no, the one that you have is not a mixed system 'that works'. Its a system in the middle of its privatization phase. When the transition is complete, youll see how things change.

PoignardAzur 4y ago
Every time anything goes wrong in any public administration, people rush to assume it's a "starve the beast" tactic even when there's no evidence whatsoever it's the case. You're making a lot of very confident assertions in that post without bothering to back them up.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > Every time anything goes wrong in any public administration, people rush to assume it's a "starve the beast" tactic People rush to assume that because they have seen it many times before.
- danaris 4y ago
  If a public administration is having trouble and it is poorly funded, then at this point I think the burden of proof is on the one trying to claim the poor funding is not a) the cause of the poor performance, and b) a deliberate tactic on the part of those who want to take the money for themselves and their corporate friends.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    The problem is that people simply claim that something is poorly funded without ever looking at the data, and then march on from that point. Here's some data: https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm It's weird, like someone once had a flat tire on their bike and now whenever someone says that their bike is broken, they can't imagine it to be anything but a flat tire. Brakes aren't working? That's because you have a flat tire. Pedals are falling off? It's just a trick to confuse you so you don't notice the flat tire. Handlebar is backwards? You've just been trained to ignore the flat tire.
    - danaris 4y ago
      It is well-known that the US spends vastly more than other countries on health care for, at best, similar outcomes. And not only is most of our healthcare spending not actually through public institutions, the absolutely awful way our public and private healthcare institutions are set up actively prevents reasonable levels of spending. Pointing at healthcare spending in the US and saying "ha-HA! that proves that public institutions aren't poorly funded!" really says much more about you than it does about healthcare, or public institutions.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        Except I wasn't, I was talking about Germany, rank two in the list of spending (in this whole thread which nobody bothers to read, apparently). Only Germany's education system doesn't leave med students in debt, and they don't earn hundreds of thousands of euros a year, you don't get giant hospital bills etc. Seriously, not every post on this site is talking about the US, especially when they specify otherwise. Americans only knowing their system and then extrapolating and assuming that it's the exact same everywhere one the planet is tiring.
        unity1001 4y ago
        > rank two in the list of spending And as long as the privatization continues, it will keep staying at rank two or rising. Looking at the state of a public healthcare system that is in the process of being privatized is not an argument for anything.
luckylion 4y ago
The public insurance system isn't being defunded or privatized, and it's the one that struggles to pay for services and requires a lot of taxes to kept upright. Hospitals were privatized decades ago, yes, and that lead to higher demands on the doctors and nurses, but that's not really the "struggling" part (they struggle finding staff, but that's another issue). And individual practitioners have always been private individuals running their own business. > Its a system in the middle of its privatization phase. Yeah, no, it's been set up this way since the beginning, feel free to look into it instead of speculating. The way it's set up is that doctors bill 2-2.3x to private insurances and subsidize their work for the public insurance system where they're very limited in how much they may bill per patient, regardless of how much time they spend on treatment.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > The public insurance system isn't being defunded or privatized, and it's the one that struggles to pay for services and requires a lot of taxes to kept upright That's intentional. Part of the crippling of the public healthcare is done to force the people to go to private healthcare, who then bill the government for the services. Its how they such taxpayer money during the privatization phase. > Yeah, no, it's been set up this way since the beginning, feel free to look into it instead of speculating No public healthcare system was set up this way 40 years ago. Even in jurisdictions that had the potential to end up like this because of what was legally allowed, nowhere in the West it was like this. Creeping privatization of the last 40 years did this. Nothing else. Its time people stopped rationalizing and justifying how things are tumbling downhill.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > No public healthcare system was set up this way 40 years ago. Okay. I mean, you could look it up [1] and check when the private insurance companies and coops (kinda) in Germany were founded, or you could just declare that it definitely wasn't ever done so. Whatever floats your boat. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany
Gigachad 4y ago
There was a comment on this site recently that proposed the reason every healthcare system in the world is struggling is because medical research has been very effective at inventing newer and more involved procedures that make it possible to solve almost any problem but at increasing resource consumption. Previously for many issues the treatment was very basic and ineffective but now we can 3D print organs, do complex transplants, and all kinds of crazy things which work but require immense resources that society can't afford. So we are left with the unpleasant situation of "Yes we do know how to cure this, but we can't afford to".

PoignardAzur 4y ago

Every time anything goes wrong in any public administration, people rush to assume it's a "starve the beast" tactic even when there's no evidence whatsoever it's the case. You're making a lot of very confident assertions in that post without bothering to back them up.

unity1001 4y ago
> Every time anything goes wrong in any public administration, people rush to assume it's a "starve the beast" tactic People rush to assume that because they have seen it many times before.
danaris 4y ago
If a public administration is having trouble and it is poorly funded, then at this point I think the burden of proof is on the one trying to claim the poor funding is not a) the cause of the poor performance, and b) a deliberate tactic on the part of those who want to take the money for themselves and their corporate friends.
- luckylion 4y ago
  The problem is that people simply claim that something is poorly funded without ever looking at the data, and then march on from that point. Here's some data: https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm It's weird, like someone once had a flat tire on their bike and now whenever someone says that their bike is broken, they can't imagine it to be anything but a flat tire. Brakes aren't working? That's because you have a flat tire. Pedals are falling off? It's just a trick to confuse you so you don't notice the flat tire. Handlebar is backwards? You've just been trained to ignore the flat tire.
  - danaris 4y ago
    It is well-known that the US spends vastly more than other countries on health care for, at best, similar outcomes. And not only is most of our healthcare spending not actually through public institutions, the absolutely awful way our public and private healthcare institutions are set up actively prevents reasonable levels of spending. Pointing at healthcare spending in the US and saying "ha-HA! that proves that public institutions aren't poorly funded!" really says much more about you than it does about healthcare, or public institutions.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Except I wasn't, I was talking about Germany, rank two in the list of spending (in this whole thread which nobody bothers to read, apparently). Only Germany's education system doesn't leave med students in debt, and they don't earn hundreds of thousands of euros a year, you don't get giant hospital bills etc. Seriously, not every post on this site is talking about the US, especially when they specify otherwise. Americans only knowing their system and then extrapolating and assuming that it's the exact same everywhere one the planet is tiring.
      - unity1001 4y ago
        > rank two in the list of spending And as long as the privatization continues, it will keep staying at rank two or rising. Looking at the state of a public healthcare system that is in the process of being privatized is not an argument for anything.

luckylion 4y ago

The public insurance system isn't being defunded or privatized, and it's the one that struggles to pay for services and requires a lot of taxes to kept upright. Hospitals were privatized decades ago, yes, and that lead to higher demands on the doctors and nurses, but that's not really the "struggling" part (they struggle finding staff, but that's another issue). And individual practitioners have always been private individuals running their own business. > Its a system in the middle of its privatization phase. Yeah, no, it's been set up this way since the beginning, feel free to look into it instead of speculating. The way it's set up is that doctors bill 2-2.3x to private insurances and subsidize their work for the public insurance system where they're very limited in how much they may bill per patient, regardless of how much time they spend on treatment.

unity1001 4y ago
> The public insurance system isn't being defunded or privatized, and it's the one that struggles to pay for services and requires a lot of taxes to kept upright That's intentional. Part of the crippling of the public healthcare is done to force the people to go to private healthcare, who then bill the government for the services. Its how they such taxpayer money during the privatization phase. > Yeah, no, it's been set up this way since the beginning, feel free to look into it instead of speculating No public healthcare system was set up this way 40 years ago. Even in jurisdictions that had the potential to end up like this because of what was legally allowed, nowhere in the West it was like this. Creeping privatization of the last 40 years did this. Nothing else. Its time people stopped rationalizing and justifying how things are tumbling downhill.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > No public healthcare system was set up this way 40 years ago. Okay. I mean, you could look it up [1] and check when the private insurance companies and coops (kinda) in Germany were founded, or you could just declare that it definitely wasn't ever done so. Whatever floats your boat. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany

Gigachad 4y ago

There was a comment on this site recently that proposed the reason every healthcare system in the world is struggling is because medical research has been very effective at inventing newer and more involved procedures that make it possible to solve almost any problem but at increasing resource consumption. Previously for many issues the treatment was very basic and ineffective but now we can 3D print organs, do complex transplants, and all kinds of crazy things which work but require immense resources that society can't afford. So we are left with the unpleasant situation of "Yes we do know how to cure this, but we can't afford to".